Could one be a dealer in coins without the capacity to grade coins?
2ltdjorn
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I always intrigued when raw coins are offered for sale... And weak offers are made whether by dealers or collectors. We often bash dealers for not paying what we believe is fair ( which is almost at profit). Could it be that weak offers are partly due because the dealer/collector can't grade? With TPG so common, I believe one can be a collector & dealer without being able to traditionally grade coins. This means one may study a series or type and be able to determine the quality of strike/originality/luster but not necessarily tell the difference between a 62 & 63. But may be able to decipher whether the coin is superior!
WTB... errors, New Orleans gold, and circulated 20th key date coins!
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That said, to answer your question, YES, you can be a dealer in coins without much capacity for grading coins...those dealers tend to be quite optimistic!
Edited to add that I think it's sometimes the dealers who think they are expert graders who have the coins that are priced way too high and beyond reality since they think they know the grade of a coin is better than the experts who certified the particular coin.
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<< <i>I always intrigued when raw coins are offered for sale... And weak offers are made whether by dealers or collectors. >>
"Weak" based on what?
<< <i>Could it be that weak offers are partly due because the dealer/collector can't grade? >>
Could be. And it could be because the TPGs aren't perfect and there are never any guarantees as to the grade one is going to get with any particular submission.
You want stronger offers on your coins? Get them graded yourself before trying to sell them.
I think a lot of people believe that just because you sell coins, even on eBay, that you are a "dealer". There are a lot of people (myself included) that buy and sell coins as a hobby (define that) without the need to make a living or even a second income from that activity. I do not consider myself a dealer and I have bought and sold thousands of coins over the years.
Joe.
If they can't grade, they would have to have some other superior skill to make up for it, like a pleasant gregarious personality, strong marketing acumen, great sales skills, or a partner who can grade.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>Yes ... there are a lot of dealers who cannot grade coins well ... just look at their "raw" offerings. >>
It is even funnier when dealers have a slabbed version of the same coin in the same grade as the raw one,
and the two coins are far apart in terms of wear and general quality! Many dealers don't list problems on
their coins either trying to pass them off to unsuspecting collectors!
<< <i>It would be a huge disadvantage but it is possible. I can think of a few dealers who have been in the business for decades who couldn't grade a raw coin for the life of them. >>
This very true and it sums up my thoughts exactly.
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Customers might be infrequent and repeat business might be lacking, of course.
Success at any vocational endeavor typically does require certain skills and abilities.
<< <i>Well at one time there were enough of them that it made third Party Grading firms a market/hobby necessity. >>
If collectors know how to grade, dealers not knowing how to is irrelevant. The thing that made TPGs a market/hobby necessity is that plenty of collectors can't grade.
<< <i>
<< <i>Well at one time there were enough of them that it made third Party Grading firms a market/hobby necessity. >>
If collectors know how to grade, dealers not knowing how to is irrelevant. The thing that made TPGs a market/hobby necessity is that plenty of collectors can't grade. >>
Third party grading became popular because most dealers knew how to grade but would purposely undergrade when buying coins and then purposely overgrade when selling those same coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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<< <i>Third party grading became popular because most dealers knew how to grade but would purposely undergrade when buying coins and then purposely overgrade when selling those same coins. >>
That only works with collectors who don't know how to grade, which is pretty much my point.
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But most require some ability to properly price a coin. It's not too unusual for even pros to
"leave some money on the table" or to overpay but you need to have a good feel for the types
of coins in which you trade.
<< <i>
<< <i>Third party grading became popular because most dealers knew how to grade but would purposely undergrade when buying coins and then purposely overgrade when selling those same coins. >>
That only works with collectors who don't know how to grade, which is pretty much my point.
The third party grading services came before the internet era where you could see the coins for sale in high definition pics. It was necessary for most collectors to buy from mail order dealers that published price lists with a grade and a short written description. Those collectors that were proficient in grading still wasted a lot of money paying to return overgraded and problem coins. At least when buying a mail order coin in an NGC or PCGS slab you were fairly assured of getting a properly graded coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Ok, just had to do that one.
I've known very successful dealers that can't grade very well.
Most coin shops deal in volume of "rum dumb" coins, so knowing the difference of Fine vs Very Fine, for coins that are $1.00 in Fine and $1.25 in VF, doesn't really matter.
Dealers can always use TPG for the "better coins" and get help with the higher end coins.
I've also known some large dealers that only deal in graded coins... makes their life easy.... also after some time, they pick up on the grading, and can "upgrade" coins.
Dealers that can grade are usually the busiest at the shows.
This Hobby has many aspects, and almost everybody finds their niche. And like any other industry, there are some that don't play fair.
This forum is a great way for folks to get some valuable info.
http://www.coinshop.com
<< <i>Those collectors that were proficient in grading still wasted a lot of money paying to return overgraded and problem coins. >>
They only wasted a lot of money on returns if they were stubborn enough to keep ordering from people whose grading they didn't agree with.
<< <i>
<< <i>Those collectors that were proficient in grading still wasted a lot of money paying to return overgraded and problem coins. >>
They only wasted a lot of money on returns if they were stubborn enough to keep ordering from people whose grading they didn't agree with. >>
True but I wasted a lot of money for return shipping/insurance after buying from numerous dealers before finding a small number that graded accurately.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>True but I wasted a lot of money for return shipping/insurance after buying from numerous dealers before finding a small number that graded accurately. >>
If you thought you were wasting money, why did you keep doing it? Apparently, the benefit outweighed the cost, it would seem.
Being a successful coin dealer is more
about sales than anything else.
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I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>True but I wasted a lot of money for return shipping/insurance after buying from numerous dealers before finding a small number that graded accurately. >>
If you thought you were wasting money, why did you keep doing it? Apparently, the benefit outweighed the cost, it would seem. >>
At one time in the early 1980's I seriously considered to stop buying coins because of all the overgraded coins in the marketplace. After NGC and PCGS came on the scene I kept collecting coins while avoiding raw coins. At the tine I was collecting U.S. gold and there were a lot of counterfeits, cleaned, overgraded, tooled, etc coins in the marketplace and any decent coin was usually overgraded and overpriced. There's a reason PCGS and NGC became so popular among collectors.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>At one time in the early 1980's I seriously considered to stop buying coins because of all the overgraded coins in the marketplace. After NGC and PCGS came on the scene I kept collecting coins while avoiding raw coins. >>
If you can grade coins, you don't need to avoid the raw ones.
<< <i>At the tine I was collecting U.S. gold and there were a lot of counterfeits, cleaned, overgraded, tooled, etc coins in the marketplace and any decent coin was usually overgraded and overpriced. >>
If you can grade coins, you don't have to buy the ones that are not graded properly.
<< <i>There's a reason PCGS and NGC became so popular among collectors. >>
Yes, there is- lots of collectors can't grade.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Well at one time there were enough of them that it made third Party Grading firms a market/hobby necessity. >>
If collectors know how to grade, dealers not knowing how to is irrelevant. The thing that made TPGs a market/hobby necessity is that plenty of collectors can't grade. >>
Third party grading became popular because most dealers knew how to grade but would purposely undergrade when buying coins and then purposely overgrade when selling those same coins. >>
LOL! 3rd party grading 1st came about so coins could be traded sight unseen like the stock market...NOT! Hence the bluesheet!
<< <i>LOL! 3rd party grading 1st came about so coins could be traded sight unseen like the stock market... >>
Well, there's that, too.
If you have a raw coin that you grade a 65 and send it to pcgs to be graded it does not always come back in a 65 holder, same for the dealers.
If i was a dealer i would make sure i graded on the low side if i am buying as there is no upside to overgrading a raw coin when the billfold comes out.
If i was a dealer i would overgrade my raw coins a point or 2 while trying to get your wallet out.
I would say most of the time a seller is at a disadvantage if trying to sell raw coins to dealers to start with. It is a easy way to leave money on the table for the seller.
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<< <i>
Cat got your tongue?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>
<< <i>LOL! 3rd party grading 1st came about so coins could be traded sight unseen like the stock market... >>
Well, there's that, too.
How many collectors do you know that trade sight unseen? Collectors embraced the third party grading services because they were reasonably assured of getting an authentic, problem free and accurately graded coin. Dealers at the time didn't like the third party grading concept because they wanted to grade their own coins but they had to use their services if they wanted to sell expensive coins to collectors because that's what collectors wanted. Expensive coins that were still raw were viewed with suspicion by most collectors and rightfully so given the grading practices of most dealers at the time (undergrade when buying and overgrade when selling).
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Could one be a dealer in coins without the capacity to grade coins? >>
Sure. You could sell coins selected or graded by others, never buy anything raw, and simply rely on grades printed on labels or verified by 4th parties.
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I have some soft sole shoes and heel tenderizer which , for me, is like my daily fiber.
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<< <i>How many collectors do you know that trade sight unseen? Collectors embraced the third party grading services because they were reasonably assured of getting an authentic, problem free and accurately graded coin. Dealers at the time didn't like the third party grading concept because they wanted to grade their own coins but they had to use their services if they wanted to sell expensive coins to collectors because that's what collectors wanted. Expensive coins that were still raw were viewed with suspicion by most collectors and rightfully so given the grading practices of most dealers at the time (undergrade when buying and overgrade when selling). >>
From "The Coin Collector's Survival Manual" by Scott Travers:
"The need for precision grading began to become apparent during the 1970's as large numbers of well-to-do outsiders started buying coins as an investment. These investors placed heavy emphasis on quality, limiting their purchases almost exclusively to Mint State coins..."
Note that Mr. Travers specified "outsiders" and "inverstors", not "collectors".
edited- more:
From the CDN, A Brief History of Coin Grading & Trading And a Look Into the Future:
"The second major development of the 1980s was the tremendous increase in investor participation in the rare coin market. The coin market has always had a degree of investor participation. Indeed, during the BU roll/Proof Set boom of the early 1960s, there were many investors and investor publications. But the number of investor participants in the coin market in the 1960s paled when compared to the tremendous amount of investors attracted to the coin market during the Gold and Silver bull market of the 1970s. The 1980s saw this investor participation increase even more. There were many large firms that sold exclusively to investors. Some did a relatively good job of supplying buyers with decent coins at fair prices, but some were nothing more than telemarketing bucket shops. Prices for coins had soared in the 1970s, and the case for coin investing was easy to make. The investor participation drove demand and was a major factor in several market segments. But the telemarketing abuse was a black eye for the coin market. The "bad guys" basically misrepresented the quality of coins they were selling, claiming they were higher quality than they actually were. This set the stage for the third major event of the 1980s, the industry's answer to the "misrepresentation of quality" problem...third-party grading."
<< <i>Third party grading became popular because most dealers knew how to grade but would purposely undergrade when buying coins and then purposely overgrade when selling those same coins. >>
As a long-time buyer of raw coins, I agree. As do most hobbyists (non-dealers), the proof is in the pudding: even those who slander TPG will still submit their rarest coins, and bid more easily on slabs vs. raw coins. They may cite protection or resale value - and those are valid reasons - but there's a peace-of-mind with TPG that individual dealers simply can't match.
The real question is whether a collector can survive without the capacity to grade coins. It is the buyer's responsibility to be educated. If you buy whizzed or counterfeit coins, over and over again, then perhaps you should switch hobbies before loosing your life savings. A fool and his money are soon parted!
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