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Al Kaline vs. Roberto Clemente
PowderedH2O
Posts: 2,443 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
OK - We know who wins the popularity contest. There are over three times as many Clemente collectors on the PSA registry in comparison to those for Kaline. And we all know about Clemente's impact in the Latin community and the heroic efforts that led to his untimely death. But, as a baseball player, who was better?
Here's what I see:
Clemente - 4 batting titles, 2 World Series titles, 1 MVP, 3000 hits, 12 Gold Gloves, 240 HR's, .317 avg., .359 OBP
Kaline - 1 batting title, 1 World Series title, 0 MVP, 3007 hits, 10 Gold Gloves, 399 HR's, .297 avg., .376 OBP
But when I look at the stats closer, I see that Kaline stole more bases and walked twice as much as Clemente while actually striking out less. Kaline actually was a solid defensive outfielder before the Gold Glove award started, so the 12-10 edge might not really be an edge at all, since Kaline likely would have won one or two more. The OPS+ has it Kaline 134 to Clemente 130. WAR rates Clemente higher at 89.8 to 87.4. Kaline has more MVP shares 2.92 to 2.80. That's splitting hairs.
So, put your fandom aside. Who was the better ballplayer? Who actually had the better career?
Here's what I see:
Clemente - 4 batting titles, 2 World Series titles, 1 MVP, 3000 hits, 12 Gold Gloves, 240 HR's, .317 avg., .359 OBP
Kaline - 1 batting title, 1 World Series title, 0 MVP, 3007 hits, 10 Gold Gloves, 399 HR's, .297 avg., .376 OBP
But when I look at the stats closer, I see that Kaline stole more bases and walked twice as much as Clemente while actually striking out less. Kaline actually was a solid defensive outfielder before the Gold Glove award started, so the 12-10 edge might not really be an edge at all, since Kaline likely would have won one or two more. The OPS+ has it Kaline 134 to Clemente 130. WAR rates Clemente higher at 89.8 to 87.4. Kaline has more MVP shares 2.92 to 2.80. That's splitting hairs.
So, put your fandom aside. Who was the better ballplayer? Who actually had the better career?
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The thing with Clemente is this to me.............he had at least a couple more decent years left in him that have to be considered. If you add 125 hits a year he would have 3250 which would make his stats look alot different. An injury is one thing; but untimely death is another.....so I believe we could look at the what might have been.
Kaline's stats are completely maxed out. He played to the bitter end. I've heard he wanted 400 HRS; but completely had nothing left in the tank.
Mickey71
Kaline seems to be one of those quiet guys, like Killebrew who just went out and did their jobs and stayed away from controversy. I read an amusing story written by ex umpire Ron Luciano. Kaline hadn't said a word to him for several years, maybe a nod in recognition of a greeting. Luciano figured Al was extremely shy. One day as he was jogging to his position Kaline said "Hey Ron how's it goin?" Luciano dashed after him and asked after all these years why was he speaking to him now, Kaline replied with a smile; "Just wanted to see if you were going to stick around".
Joe
<< <i>I've actually thought about these two and have thought it was pretty even. It's six of one and half a dozen of another.
However, IMO, Clemente had a MUCH better career with more accoutrements. He has 3 more batting titles, one more ring, an MVP award, and a career batting average of .317 vs. .297. Hands down I would rather have Clemente's career. Having said that, Kaline has always been a bit underrated. >>
Agreed. Clemente was also a World series MVP. The guy was a beast, 5 tool player. Another thing is, he played almost his entire career at forbes field, which was the hardest place to hit home runs. Because the guy did have alot of power.
<< <i> Clemente did have that tremendous arm. >>
Kaline had a tremendous arm, also.
I grew up in Detroit during Kaline's playing days and always wondered if anyone outside of Tiger fans knew who he was. Always the gentleman, I was shocked when he broke his hand slamming a bat into the bat rack after a strikeout. His stats tapered off dramatically at the end of his career. I'd give the edge to Clemente.
Both were great players and great men that made Baseball what it once was. MLB players of today can learn so much from Clemente and Kaline and I will leave it at that.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i> Clemente did have that tremendous arm. >>
Kaline had a tremendous arm, also.
I grew up in Detroit during Kaline's playing days and always wondered if anyone outside of Tiger fans knew who he was. Always the gentleman, I was shocked when he broke his hand slamming a bat into the bat rack after a strikeout. His stats tapered off dramatically at the end of his career. I'd give the edge to Clemente. >>
Also from Detroit and agree with this premise. Clemente by an eyelash, if that. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As you can see I am a HUGE Al Kaline fan. I grew up in Detroit (Born in 1954). I actually
grew up watching Al Kaline. Kaline, as you can see was INDEED my BASEBALL HERO.
I think he could do it all, Hit field etc. An absolutely GEM of a player. He was a true leader
and unselfish player when it came to winning, there were few his equal.
With all that said, I have to agree that Roberto Clemente was DEFINITELY the better player
of the two.....
Again, Clemente's career was actually cut short and while I think pitching in the 60's was
much tougher mainly because of the height of the mound and the "WIDE-NESS" of the
strike zone, especially in the American League, you have to look at the pitchers that
Roberto Clemente endured against. Gibson, Koufax, Drysdale, Spahn and on and on.
I think in general the National League was definitely a tougher tow than the American
League.
However, these things, in my opinion, are just that....MY OPINION !
Tony
KalineFan
You're killing me Tony!
Joe
The difference in talent in the NL was very real in the 50s. Virtually equal by the end of the 60s
For today I'll lean toward Kaline, while forever calling Clemente one of the five greatest figures in baseball history
I should note that I grew up in Detroit though I am too young (born in '72) to remember Kaline as a player. My memories of him are as a color commentator for the Tigers and meeting him a couple times for autographs. He's an absolute legend in Detroit - deservedly so - and you'd have to search long and hard to find somebody with a cross word to say about him. Total class act, super-nice guy.
Tabe
Didn't watch enough of Clemente to make a comparison, but Kaline was God in Detroit.