When you talk about Puckett's integrity, sportsmanship and character, are you referring to the allegations of false imprisonment, fifth-degree criminal sexual conduct, and fifth-degree assault after being accused of groping a woman in a restaurant bathroom? Or are you speaking of his infectious smile and great attitude on the field?
<< <i>When you talk about Puckett's integrity, sportsmanship and character, are you referring to the allegations of false imprisonment, fifth-degree criminal sexual conduct, and fifth-degree assault after being accused of groping a woman in a restaurant bathroom? Or are you speaking of his infectious smile and great attitude on the field? >>
Yup, that is the problem.
A guy who is deemed surly can actually have better character than a guy who is smiling all over the place. There really is no way for a voter, or even a teammate, to tell...and that is probably why those attributes are largely ignored when it comes to HOF voting.
Whereas a three run home run is a three run home run. Yes of course the situation of that HR makes a difference. However, with the play by play data(and the precise measurements that use that data), ALL of that information is accounted for and measured.
When it comes to measuring baseball(especially hitters), there really is no mystery or room for opinion. They contributed what they contributed, and what they did can be measured in a precise way in terms of how much it means to contributing toward runs and wins.
How one wants to take that information and weigh it vs. the other criteria such as integrity, sportsmanship, or character can be up for debate. But like I said, unless a guy is a mass murderer(or gambler) or a certified Saint(though I don't know of one), the character issues have been ignored. So it brings us back to guys being inducted for what they did on the field. Therefore, Raines belongs. Objectively speaking of course.
<< <i>As for Tim Raines, he definitely was considers a star while I always growing up during the entirety of his career. >>
Sorry but this statement is just plain false. Raines was most definitely NOT considered a star the last third of his career - at least. He was considered a good player, a role player (the last few years), and so on. But a star? Nah. Stars don't play in 50 games a year.
Tabe >>
Raines played in more games than Gwynn, and reached base more times as well. Gwynn's OBP was .003 higher than Raines', but hit into far more DPs. Raines had more power, and was one of the all time great basestealers.
<< <i>Thurman Munson should be in. If you're going to vote in Sandy Koufax for having a career cut short by injury but being dominant while he played then Munson should be voted in for the same reason. Koufax had 12 years in the majors while Munson had 11 and Munson was just as important to his team as Koufax was to his, arguably more so (Reggie Jackson's opinion aside). >>
Koufax dominated the game. Munson did not. IMO, Koufax was far more important to his team than was Munson. Thurman had begun to decline. How many catchers were stars into their 30s? Not many. >>
I really can not beleive somebody can say Munson should be in over Koufax and keep a straight face!!!!! I think Yankeesman was just trying to bait me and I wasn't going to respond, but I just can't help it!!!! Mark said all I need to say! >>
I never said Koufax didn't deserve to be in. I absolutely believe he should be. I'm just saying injury cutting short a career and death cutting short a career should be considered equally. I also don't see how you can say Munson was in decline when he died. Matter of opinion I suppose.
Don Mattingly, Yogi Berra, Thurman Munson, Brian McCann and Topps Rookie Cup autograph collector www.questfortherookiecup.com
<< <i>Raines played in more games than Gwynn, and reached base more times as well. Gwynn's OBP was .003 higher than Raines', but hit into far more DPs. Raines had more power, and was one of the all time great basestealers. >>
What's that got to do with whether Raines was a star for his entire career?
<< <i>I also don't see how you can say Munson was in decline when he died. Matter of opinion I suppose. >>
You don't think hitting just 9 HRs in the last 250 games of his career - after averaging 16 per year the 5 seasons prior - is an indicator that he was declining? Or that his slugging % dropped nearly 90 points from 1977 to 1978 and then stayed at that level in 1979?
Nobody's saying he was terrible but he was definitely in decline.
I'd argue that Raines is more popular with the cool kids these days than he was in his hey day. He was well regarded as a 'star' back in the day, but was kind of known as a one trick pony even then. Also, if you look at his stats, he really didn't do much after '87 or '88 except hang around forever as a role player/stat compiler. Bottom line- he never won a MVP, and was never considered one of the top 5 or 10 players in the game at any point in his career. I think that the walks make him look a lot better than he actually was. Very good player for a stretch, but not a HOF in my view. If a guy like Dave Parker (who in my view was absolutely the best player in the game in the late 70's) get's no love, why should Raines?
Add the fact that Gil won the Gold Glove Award the first 7 years it was awarded. You correctly identified that Gil was in the top two for Home runs and RBI's for the decade of the 1050's.Gil has the highest total of any player in his 15 yrs on the ballot not to be elected to the Hall.would have been the Veterans selection if Roy Campanella had not been ill or been allowed to vote on an absentee ballot!
Murphy was outstanding for a brief period of time, but his peak was too short and he fell apart too soon. If you let him in, you have to let Mattingly in, too. The bar has been lowered enough for HOF induction, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
This thread is right up my alley. I love discussing who should be in the HoF. Generally more NBA and NFL HoF...but this will do.
Roger Maris - no. 1 year should not put you into the HoF. Steve Garvey - Very close but I say Yes Gil Hodges - Definitely worthy of mention but i'd say no Jim Kaat - Yes. Top starting pitcher for 10+ years as well as the greatest fielding pitcher ever. Dick Allen - no. Absolute dominant player. 7 time all star. MVP. RoY. but...needed a couple of more seasons to make it. very close call. Dave Kingman - no Dwight Evans - no Tony Oliva - Just like Dick Allen. Absolutely dominant years but injury took away his HoF. Very close call as well. Tim Raines - Yes. One of the great player of the 80's plus has the career stats to easily back it up Dale Murphy - no. Had a great string of about 7 seasons yet the rest of his career was no where near HoF. would put Dick Allen and Tony Oliva before Dale. Thurman Munson - no. One of the great catchers of the 70's. Has everything you'd want to see up to the point of death in a HoF catcher....but falls just short. Lou Whitaker - no. Looking back at Lou...He was very good for a very long time...just never great. Don Mattingly - no. one of my favorites as a kid....but does not cut it for HoF. Tommy John - Yes. I'd have him barely getting in. Definitely one of the better pitchers in his time and was solid for 20 years + revolutionized the sport via surgery Albert Belle - Hell no. Keith Hernandez - very close call. one of the greatest fielding first basemen ever. Great career stats. MVP. key figure in a iconic 1986 team. I say Yes. Alan Trammell - Like Whitaker..he was good for a long time but had stretches of greatness. I'd say Yes on him. Al Oliver - An amazing hitter with career stats that are HoF worthy. Does not receive the repeat he should receive. I say yes. Dave Parker - Yes. Stats to back it up. MVP. 8 time All Star. 5 times in the top 5 in MVP votes. Ken Boyer - One of the best 3b's of his time. Career fizzled out not allowing him to get my vote. no Ted Simmons - extremely underrated. Yes. Minnie Minoso - Dominant OF during his time. Like Allen and Oliva just did not have the career stats to take him over the top. Lee Smith - Yes. One of the greatest relievers ever. Fred McGriff - no. great career though. Roger Clemens - no. Barry Bonds - no Luis Tiant - Yes. A top pitcher in the first half of career. Horrible injury and came back and changed his way of pitching and became one of the best again.
some additional
Vada Pinson - very underrated. 250 homers. 300+ steals. 2700+ hits. .286 average. HoF numbers. but barely say no. Joe Torre (player) - Yes. Dominate catcher in his time. His career as a coach has taken away his career as a player. Rusty Staub - Had this guy been a Yankee with his career he would of been thought of as a great of the game.....but no. Mike Mussina - 270 wins but with a high ERA. played in the steroid era so more forgiving on the ERA...but no. Jerry Koosman - Great stats. With a better win/loss record he'd be in the HoF. - no Mickey Lolich - Just the same as Jerry....no
Originally posted by: 49ersGuy This thread is right up my alley. I love discussing who should be in the HoF. Generally more NBA and NFL HoF...but this will do.
Roger Maris - no. 1 year should not put you into the HoF. Steve Garvey - Very close but I say Yes Gil Hodges - Definitely worthy of mention but i'd say no Jim Kaat - Yes. Top starting pitcher for 10+ years as well as the greatest fielding pitcher ever. Dick Allen - no. Absolute dominant player. 7 time all star. MVP. RoY. but...needed a couple of more seasons to make it. very close call. Dave Kingman - no Dwight Evans - no Tony Oliva - Just like Dick Allen. Absolutely dominant years but injury took away his HoF. Very close call as well. Tim Raines - Yes. One of the great player of the 80's plus has the career stats to easily back it up Dale Murphy - no. Had a great string of about 7 seasons yet the rest of his career was no where near HoF. would put Dick Allen and Tony Oliva before Dale. Thurman Munson - no. One of the great catchers of the 70's. Has everything you'd want to see up to the point of death in a HoF catcher....but falls just short. Lou Whitaker - no. Looking back at Lou...He was very good for a very long time...just never great. Don Mattingly - no. one of my favorites as a kid....but does not cut it for HoF. Tommy John - Yes. I'd have him barely getting in. Definitely one of the better pitchers in his time and was solid for 20 years + revolutionized the sport via surgery Albert Belle - Hell no. Keith Hernandez - very close call. one of the greatest fielding first basemen ever. Great career stats. MVP. key figure in a iconic 1986 team. I say Yes. Alan Trammell - Like Whitaker..he was good for a long time but had stretches of greatness. I'd say Yes on him. Al Oliver - An amazing hitter with career stats that are HoF worthy. Does not receive the repeat he should receive. I say yes. Dave Parker - Yes. Stats to back it up. MVP. 8 time All Star. 5 times in the top 5 in MVP votes. Ken Boyer - One of the best 3b's of his time. Career fizzled out not allowing him to get my vote. no Ted Simmons - extremely underrated. Yes. Minnie Minoso - Dominant OF during his time. Like Allen and Oliva just did not have the career stats to take him over the top. Lee Smith - Yes. One of the greatest relievers ever. Fred McGriff - no. great career though. Roger Clemens - no. Barry Bonds - no Luis Tiant - Yes. A top pitcher in the first half of career. Horrible injury and came back and changed his way of pitching and became one of the best again.
some additional
Vada Pinson - very underrated. 250 homers. 300+ steals. 2700+ hits. .286 average. HoF numbers. but barely say no. Joe Torre (player) - Yes. Dominate catcher in his time. His career as a coach has taken away his career as a player. Rusty Staub - Had this guy been a Yankee with his career he would of been thought of as a great of the game.....but no. Mike Mussina - 270 wins but with a high ERA. played in the steroid era so more forgiving on the ERA...but no. Jerry Koosman - Great stats. With a better win/loss record he'd be in the HoF. - no Mickey Lolich - Just the same as Jerry....no
Good post. I agree with all of these except for Murphy and Torre.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
This thread is right up my alley. I love discussing who should be in the HoF. Generally more NBA and NFL HoF...but this will do.
Roger Maris - no. 1 year should not put you into the HoF.
Steve Garvey - Very close but I say Yes
Gil Hodges - Definitely worthy of mention but i'd say no
Jim Kaat - Yes. Top starting pitcher for 10+ years as well as the greatest fielding pitcher ever.
Dick Allen - no. Absolute dominant player. 7 time all star. MVP. RoY. but...needed a couple of more seasons to make it. very close call.
Dave Kingman - no
Dwight Evans - no
Tony Oliva - Just like Dick Allen. Absolutely dominant years but injury took away his HoF. Very close call as well.
Tim Raines - Yes. One of the great player of the 80's plus has the career stats to easily back it up
Dale Murphy - no. Had a great string of about 7 seasons yet the rest of his career was no where near HoF. would put Dick Allen and Tony Oliva before Dale.
Thurman Munson - no. One of the great catchers of the 70's. Has everything you'd want to see up to the point of death in a HoF catcher....but falls just short.
Lou Whitaker - no. Looking back at Lou...He was very good for a very long time...just never great.
Don Mattingly - no. one of my favorites as a kid....but does not cut it for HoF.
Tommy John - Yes. I'd have him barely getting in. Definitely one of the better pitchers in his time and was solid for 20 years + revolutionized the sport via surgery
Albert Belle - Hell no.
Keith Hernandez - very close call. one of the greatest fielding first basemen ever. Great career stats. MVP. key figure in a iconic 1986 team. I say Yes.
Alan Trammell - Like Whitaker..he was good for a long time but had stretches of greatness. I'd say Yes on him.
Al Oliver - An amazing hitter with career stats that are HoF worthy. Does not receive the repeat he should receive. I say yes.
Dave Parker - Yes. Stats to back it up. MVP. 8 time All Star. 5 times in the top 5 in MVP votes.
Ken Boyer - One of the best 3b's of his time. Career fizzled out not allowing him to get my vote. no
Ted Simmons - extremely underrated. Yes.
Minnie Minoso - Dominant OF during his time. Like Allen and Oliva just did not have the career stats to take him over the top.
Lee Smith - Yes. One of the greatest relievers ever.
Fred McGriff - no. great career though.
Roger Clemens - no.
Barry Bonds - no
Luis Tiant - Yes. A top pitcher in the first half of career. Horrible injury and came back and changed his way of pitching and became one of the best again.
some additional
Vada Pinson - very underrated. 250 homers. 300+ steals. 2700+ hits. .286 average. HoF numbers. but barely say no.
Joe Torre (player) - Yes. Dominate catcher in his time. His career as a coach has taken away his career as a player.
Rusty Staub - Had this guy been a Yankee with his career he would of been thought of as a great of the game.....but no.
Mike Mussina - 270 wins but with a high ERA. played in the steroid era so more forgiving on the ERA...but no.
Jerry Koosman - Great stats. With a better win/loss record he'd be in the HoF. - no
Mickey Lolich - Just the same as Jerry....no
Good post. I agree with all of these except for Murphy and Torre.
I always like seeing others who agree Trammell should be in. He was my favorite hometown player during the '80s by far.
Mark Grace, no doubt! Most people will scoff at such a remark but consider two things... he played in the heart of the steroid era and also at a time when "standards" for most positions were being completely destroyed (i.e., power hitters at SS and 2B, contact hitters at 3B/1B). He led all hitters in the 1990 decade in hits and doubles, lifetime .303 batter. Gold Glover, All-Star, and true leader on his teams (over Dawson, Sandberg or Sosa).
Just for fun, guess which one of these career stats belong to Gracey and which ones belong to Ryno (although it still took Ryno 3 years to get in):
Jim Kaat "greatest defensive pitcher of all-time" - seriously, who cares? First of all, defensive ability for a pitcher is like item #7328 on the list of things teams look for. Secondly, while its admittedly not a great measure, Kaat's lifetime fielding % was just .947 - a terrible number for a modern player.
As a pitcher, I would argue Kaat was never great. Very good? Sure. Excellent a couple times. But never great. And you gotta be great, to me anyway , to get in the HOF.
Originally posted by: baz518 Mark Grace, no doubt! Most people will scoff at such a remark but consider two things... he played in the heart of the steroid era and also at a time when "standards" for most positions were being completely destroyed (i.e., power hitters at SS and 2B, contact hitters at 3B/1B). He led all hitters in the 1990 decade in hits and doubles, lifetime .303 batter. Gold Glover, All-Star, and true leader on his teams (over Dawson, Sandberg or Sosa).
John Olerud was better - in pretty much all areas. You want him in the HOF?
Originally posted by: GONEBATS Add the fact that Gil won the Gold Glove Award the first 7 years it was awarded. You correctly identified that Gil was in the top two for Home runs and RBI's for the decade of the 1050's.Gil has the highest total of any player in his 15 yrs on the ballot not to be elected to the Hall.would have been the Veterans selection if Roy Campanella had not been ill or been allowed to vote on an absentee ballot!
Should be a slam dunk nominee!
+1000
Gil Hodges being kept out of the HOF is a travesty. Not only did he have the stats and the longevity, but he was one of the most decent and classy people ever to play the game.
Something should be done to finally recognize Gil for his accomplishments both on the field and off.
I have long thought that Gil Hodges deserves entry into the Hall.
How many first basemen -- or players at other positions for that matter -- accomplished anything equivalent to the following by the end of Gil Hodges' playing era? ...
?All-time career right-handed home run hitter in the the N.L. and second in the major leagues to Jimmie Foxx (both eventually surpassed by Willie Mays) All-time career Grand Slam hitter in the N.L. (until surpassed by Hank Aaron) 100 or more RBI seven consecutive years 30 or more HR 6 times, 5 consecutively 3 Gold Gloves (the first 3 awarded; they only started giving them in 1957, toward the latter part of his career) 7 World Series appearances 8 All-Star Game selections as N.L. first baseman 2nd most HR and RBI of any player in the major leagues during the 1950s (Duke Snider was first in both categories)
While his total career stats may not measure up to some other HOF entrants, Hodges was unquestionably a dominating first baseman in his era -- both offensively and defensively -- and one of the best in baseball history. Of the 21 players with at least 300 home runs at the time of his retirement in 1963, he is the only one not in the HOF.
For a cherry on top of the sundae, he won a World Series as a manager of the Mets in 1969. Sadly, he died two and a half years later in April 1972 at the young age of 47.
By the way, like Ted Williams, Hodges lost three seasons to military service with the U.S. Marines in World War II; he was awarded a Bronze Star for heroism under fire for action in southeast Asia.
I believe there is a compelling case for his election to the Hall of Fame.
There should be 2 Hall Of Fames. One for the REAL guys like Ruth, Mays, Cobb, Wagner, Mantle etc. That one wouldnt have too many guys in it, maybe 40 or 50 max. The rest of these jokers can have a double wide set up out back with anyone who made the all star team more than once, won 20 games, played for the Yankees or the Dodgers, etc. Basically 5% of the guys who ever wore a uniform. Its so diluted down now that its a farce. The only way to save face is to set up a Performance Enhancing Drug HOF now THAT would be one hell of a team!!! They are going to pump (clap) you up!!
Originally posted by: Lefthander I have long thought that Gil Hodges deserves entry into the Hall.
How many first basemen -- or players at other positions for that matter -- accomplished anything equivalent to the following by the end of Gil Hodges' playing era? ...
?All-time career right-handed home run hitter in the the N.L. and second in the major leagues to Jimmie Foxx (both eventually surpassed by Willie Mays) All-time career Grand Slam hitter in the N.L. (until surpassed by Hank Aaron) 100 or more RBI seven consecutive years 30 or more HR 6 times, 5 consecutively 3 Gold Gloves (the first 3 awarded; they only started giving them in 1957, toward the latter part of his career) 7 World Series appearances 8 All-Star Game selections as N.L. first baseman 2nd most HR and RBI of any player in the major leagues during the 1950s (Duke Snider was first in both categories)
While his total career stats may not measure up to some other HOF entrants, Hodges was unquestionably a dominating first baseman in his era -- both offensively and defensively -- and one of the best in baseball history. Of the 21 players with at least 300 home runs at the time of his retirement in 1963, he is the only one not in the HOF.
For a cherry on top of the sundae, he won a World Series as a manager of the Mets in 1969. Sadly, he died two and a half years later in April 1972 at the young age of 47.
By the way, like Ted Williams, Hodges lost three seasons to military service with the U.S. Marines in World War II; he was awarded a Bronze Star for heroism under fire for action in southeast Asia.
I believe there is a compelling case for his election to the Hall of Fame.
Slight correction - he lost two seasons to the military, not three.
Originally posted by: Lefthander I have long thought that Gil Hodges deserves entry into the Hall.
How many first basemen -- or players at other positions for that matter -- accomplished anything equivalent to the following by the end of Gil Hodges' playing era? ...
?All-time career right-handed home run hitter in the the N.L. and second in the major leagues to Jimmie Foxx (both eventually surpassed by Willie Mays) All-time career Grand Slam hitter in the N.L. (until surpassed by Hank Aaron) 100 or more RBI seven consecutive years 30 or more HR 6 times, 5 consecutively 3 Gold Gloves (the first 3 awarded; they only started giving them in 1957, toward the latter part of his career) 7 World Series appearances 8 All-Star Game selections as N.L. first baseman 2nd most HR and RBI of any player in the major leagues during the 1950s (Duke Snider was first in both categories)
While his total career stats may not measure up to some other HOF entrants, Hodges was unquestionably a dominating first baseman in his era -- both offensively and defensively -- and one of the best in baseball history. Of the 21 players with at least 300 home runs at the time of his retirement in 1963, he is the only one not in the HOF.
For a cherry on top of the sundae, he won a World Series as a manager of the Mets in 1969. Sadly, he died two and a half years later in April 1972 at the young age of 47.
By the way, like Ted Williams, Hodges lost three seasons to military service with the U.S. Marines in World War II; he was awarded a Bronze Star for heroism under fire for action in southeast Asia.
I believe there is a compelling case for his election to the Hall of Fame.
Slight correction - he lost two seasons to the military, not three.
Very well said!
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I completely agree that Hodges deserves to be in the HOF and was absolutely appalled to learn a few years back that he was essentially elected by the Veteran's Committee in 1993, but Ted Williams (who chaired the committee at the time) disallowed a vote. That vote, the deciding vote, belonged to Roy Campanella, who was unable to attend the meeting in person due to failing health. Williams made up some BS about votes having to be tendered in person and to this day Hodges has yet to get in. I lost a ton of respect for Williams after I found this out. You can read more about it near the end of the article below:
"My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament. Our childhood was typical. Summers in Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When we were insolent we were placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds - pretty standard really."
Thank you for the Ted Williams blackballing Gil Hodges from the HOF story. I've known for many years that Ted Williams was extremely jealous of, and would never forgive, Gil Hodges for receiving (from the PRESS) the bulk of the credit for the brief resurgence of the Washington Senators in the late 60s. Gil Hodges managing the Miracle Mets of '69 all the way to winning the World Series was a stunning, profound achievement. It was a thorough humiliation for Baltimore Orioles manager Earl Weaver, who in turn joined Ted Williams in blackballing Gil from the Hall. The little bit that Gil might have lacked for HOF credentials as a player was more than made up for in 1969.
I know youse guys are of the notion that one great year must never put anyone in the HOF. The HOF itself has standards. Be that as it may, some people in baseball put more in one year than the half dozen solid seasons the HOF deems a candidate should have. One individual I name had a solid career, but also had one defining moment in baseball history.
Therefore, besides Gil Hodges, I would like to see Roger Maris, Thurman Munson, Minnie Minoso, Tommy John, Bobby Thomson, Smoky Joe Wood, and Colby Jack Coombs. Some of these gentlemen had a few great seasons---outstanding seasons. Bobby Thomson had the greatest moment in baseball history, and no one would let him forget it---he was known as a clutch hero until the day he died. Joe Wood had 1912---INCREDIBLE. Jack Coombs---take the time to read his piece on the SABR site. For a few years he was amazing.
I would like to have named Dick Allen, but the way he walked out on his team in '74 was utterly disgraceful. I'd have contributed some dough to have Mr. Ed talk some sense into him to get back in a Sox uniform and play with all the might of his power! In reality, of course, ....
You know, I cannot put these guys in the HOF with the lousy argument, "because they put in so and so, who should not have been enshrined in the first place, they should put my guy in". There WERE some buddy-buddy Veterans Committe elections going on in the 60s-70s. Then there's Joe Jackson, and Pete Rose, and the ROIDs; we cannot forget the ROIDs--Big Mac, Rotten Barry Bogus Bonds, and Slammin' Sammy point to his Ma, but now we're ALL pointing at him accusingly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's messed up now.
So what do we have? An endless hot stove league of who belongs, and who don't.
So, collect who you like, and if they get in, surprise-surprise. ---Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
Comments
<< <i>When you talk about Puckett's integrity, sportsmanship and character, are you referring to the allegations of false imprisonment, fifth-degree criminal sexual conduct, and fifth-degree assault after being accused of groping a woman in a restaurant bathroom? Or are you speaking of his infectious smile and great attitude on the field? >>
Yup, that is the problem.
A guy who is deemed surly can actually have better character than a guy who is smiling all over the place. There really is no way for a voter, or even a teammate, to tell...and that is probably why those attributes are largely ignored when it comes to HOF voting.
Whereas a three run home run is a three run home run. Yes of course the situation of that HR makes a difference. However, with the play by play data(and the precise measurements that use that data), ALL of that information is accounted for and measured.
When it comes to measuring baseball(especially hitters), there really is no mystery or room for opinion. They contributed what they contributed, and what they did can be measured in a precise way in terms of how much it means to contributing toward runs and wins.
How one wants to take that information and weigh it vs. the other criteria such as integrity, sportsmanship, or character can be up for debate. But like I said, unless a guy is a mass murderer(or gambler) or a certified Saint(though I don't know of one), the character issues have been ignored. So it brings us back to guys being inducted for what they did on the field. Therefore, Raines belongs. Objectively speaking of course.
<< <i>The veteran's committee has ruined the HOF >>
Why do you choose to give the same weight to Veteran's Committee selections as you do to the choices made by the writers?
<< <i>
<< <i>As for Tim Raines, he definitely was considers a star while I always growing up during the entirety of his career. >>
Sorry but this statement is just plain false. Raines was most definitely NOT considered a star the last third of his career - at least. He was considered a good player, a role player (the last few years), and so on. But a star? Nah. Stars don't play in 50 games a year.
Tabe >>
Raines played in more games than Gwynn, and reached base more times as well. Gwynn's OBP was .003 higher than Raines', but hit into far more DPs. Raines had more power, and was one of the all time great basestealers.
Dave Parker
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Thurman Munson should be in. If you're going to vote in Sandy Koufax for having a career cut short by injury but being dominant while he played then Munson should be voted in for the same reason. Koufax had 12 years in the majors while Munson had 11 and Munson was just as important to his team as Koufax was to his, arguably more so (Reggie Jackson's opinion aside). >>
Koufax dominated the game. Munson did not. IMO, Koufax was far more important to his team than was Munson. Thurman had begun to decline. How many catchers were stars into their 30s? Not many. >>
I really can not beleive somebody can say Munson should be in over Koufax and keep a straight face!!!!!
I think Yankeesman was just trying to bait me and I wasn't going to respond, but I just can't help it!!!!
Mark said all I need to say! >>
I never said Koufax didn't deserve to be in. I absolutely believe he should be. I'm just saying injury cutting short a career and death cutting short a career should be considered equally. I also don't see how you can say Munson was in decline when he died. Matter of opinion I suppose.
www.questfortherookiecup.com
Wonderful player and by all accounts a great teammate
<< <i>Raines played in more games than Gwynn, and reached base more times as well. Gwynn's OBP was .003 higher than Raines', but hit into far more DPs. Raines had more power, and was one of the all time great basestealers. >>
What's that got to do with whether Raines was a star for his entire career?
Tabe
<< <i>I also don't see how you can say Munson was in decline when he died. Matter of opinion I suppose. >>
You don't think hitting just 9 HRs in the last 250 games of his career - after averaging 16 per year the 5 seasons prior - is an indicator that he was declining? Or that his slugging % dropped nearly 90 points from 1977 to 1978 and then stayed at that level in 1979?
Nobody's saying he was terrible but he was definitely in decline.
Tabe
Should be a slam dunk nominee!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Roger Maris - no. 1 year should not put you into the HoF.
Steve Garvey - Very close but I say Yes
Gil Hodges - Definitely worthy of mention but i'd say no
Jim Kaat - Yes. Top starting pitcher for 10+ years as well as the greatest fielding pitcher ever.
Dick Allen - no. Absolute dominant player. 7 time all star. MVP. RoY. but...needed a couple of more seasons to make it. very close call.
Dave Kingman - no
Dwight Evans - no
Tony Oliva - Just like Dick Allen. Absolutely dominant years but injury took away his HoF. Very close call as well.
Tim Raines - Yes. One of the great player of the 80's plus has the career stats to easily back it up
Dale Murphy - no. Had a great string of about 7 seasons yet the rest of his career was no where near HoF. would put Dick Allen and Tony Oliva before Dale.
Thurman Munson - no. One of the great catchers of the 70's. Has everything you'd want to see up to the point of death in a HoF catcher....but falls just short.
Lou Whitaker - no. Looking back at Lou...He was very good for a very long time...just never great.
Don Mattingly - no. one of my favorites as a kid....but does not cut it for HoF.
Tommy John - Yes. I'd have him barely getting in. Definitely one of the better pitchers in his time and was solid for 20 years + revolutionized the sport via surgery
Albert Belle - Hell no.
Keith Hernandez - very close call. one of the greatest fielding first basemen ever. Great career stats. MVP. key figure in a iconic 1986 team. I say Yes.
Alan Trammell - Like Whitaker..he was good for a long time but had stretches of greatness. I'd say Yes on him.
Al Oliver - An amazing hitter with career stats that are HoF worthy. Does not receive the repeat he should receive. I say yes.
Dave Parker - Yes. Stats to back it up. MVP. 8 time All Star. 5 times in the top 5 in MVP votes.
Ken Boyer - One of the best 3b's of his time. Career fizzled out not allowing him to get my vote. no
Ted Simmons - extremely underrated. Yes.
Minnie Minoso - Dominant OF during his time. Like Allen and Oliva just did not have the career stats to take him over the top.
Lee Smith - Yes. One of the greatest relievers ever.
Fred McGriff - no. great career though.
Roger Clemens - no.
Barry Bonds - no
Luis Tiant - Yes. A top pitcher in the first half of career. Horrible injury and came back and changed his way of pitching and became one of the best again.
some additional
Vada Pinson - very underrated. 250 homers. 300+ steals. 2700+ hits. .286 average. HoF numbers. but barely say no.
Joe Torre (player) - Yes. Dominate catcher in his time. His career as a coach has taken away his career as a player.
Rusty Staub - Had this guy been a Yankee with his career he would of been thought of as a great of the game.....but no.
Mike Mussina - 270 wins but with a high ERA. played in the steroid era so more forgiving on the ERA...but no.
Jerry Koosman - Great stats. With a better win/loss record he'd be in the HoF. - no
Mickey Lolich - Just the same as Jerry....no
This thread is right up my alley. I love discussing who should be in the HoF. Generally more NBA and NFL HoF...but this will do.
Roger Maris - no. 1 year should not put you into the HoF.
Steve Garvey - Very close but I say Yes
Gil Hodges - Definitely worthy of mention but i'd say no
Jim Kaat - Yes. Top starting pitcher for 10+ years as well as the greatest fielding pitcher ever.
Dick Allen - no. Absolute dominant player. 7 time all star. MVP. RoY. but...needed a couple of more seasons to make it. very close call.
Dave Kingman - no
Dwight Evans - no
Tony Oliva - Just like Dick Allen. Absolutely dominant years but injury took away his HoF. Very close call as well.
Tim Raines - Yes. One of the great player of the 80's plus has the career stats to easily back it up
Dale Murphy - no. Had a great string of about 7 seasons yet the rest of his career was no where near HoF. would put Dick Allen and Tony Oliva before Dale.
Thurman Munson - no. One of the great catchers of the 70's. Has everything you'd want to see up to the point of death in a HoF catcher....but falls just short.
Lou Whitaker - no. Looking back at Lou...He was very good for a very long time...just never great.
Don Mattingly - no. one of my favorites as a kid....but does not cut it for HoF.
Tommy John - Yes. I'd have him barely getting in. Definitely one of the better pitchers in his time and was solid for 20 years + revolutionized the sport via surgery
Albert Belle - Hell no.
Keith Hernandez - very close call. one of the greatest fielding first basemen ever. Great career stats. MVP. key figure in a iconic 1986 team. I say Yes.
Alan Trammell - Like Whitaker..he was good for a long time but had stretches of greatness. I'd say Yes on him.
Al Oliver - An amazing hitter with career stats that are HoF worthy. Does not receive the repeat he should receive. I say yes.
Dave Parker - Yes. Stats to back it up. MVP. 8 time All Star. 5 times in the top 5 in MVP votes.
Ken Boyer - One of the best 3b's of his time. Career fizzled out not allowing him to get my vote. no
Ted Simmons - extremely underrated. Yes.
Minnie Minoso - Dominant OF during his time. Like Allen and Oliva just did not have the career stats to take him over the top.
Lee Smith - Yes. One of the greatest relievers ever.
Fred McGriff - no. great career though.
Roger Clemens - no.
Barry Bonds - no
Luis Tiant - Yes. A top pitcher in the first half of career. Horrible injury and came back and changed his way of pitching and became one of the best again.
some additional
Vada Pinson - very underrated. 250 homers. 300+ steals. 2700+ hits. .286 average. HoF numbers. but barely say no.
Joe Torre (player) - Yes. Dominate catcher in his time. His career as a coach has taken away his career as a player.
Rusty Staub - Had this guy been a Yankee with his career he would of been thought of as a great of the game.....but no.
Mike Mussina - 270 wins but with a high ERA. played in the steroid era so more forgiving on the ERA...but no.
Jerry Koosman - Great stats. With a better win/loss record he'd be in the HoF. - no
Mickey Lolich - Just the same as Jerry....no
Good post. I agree with all of these except for Murphy and Torre.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Roger Maris - no. 1 year should not put you into the HoF.
Agree that he's not a HOFer but to be nit-picky, he was a back to back MVP, not a one year wonder type guy.
This thread is right up my alley. I love discussing who should be in the HoF. Generally more NBA and NFL HoF...but this will do.
Roger Maris - no. 1 year should not put you into the HoF.
Steve Garvey - Very close but I say Yes
Gil Hodges - Definitely worthy of mention but i'd say no
Jim Kaat - Yes. Top starting pitcher for 10+ years as well as the greatest fielding pitcher ever.
Dick Allen - no. Absolute dominant player. 7 time all star. MVP. RoY. but...needed a couple of more seasons to make it. very close call.
Dave Kingman - no
Dwight Evans - no
Tony Oliva - Just like Dick Allen. Absolutely dominant years but injury took away his HoF. Very close call as well.
Tim Raines - Yes. One of the great player of the 80's plus has the career stats to easily back it up
Dale Murphy - no. Had a great string of about 7 seasons yet the rest of his career was no where near HoF. would put Dick Allen and Tony Oliva before Dale.
Thurman Munson - no. One of the great catchers of the 70's. Has everything you'd want to see up to the point of death in a HoF catcher....but falls just short.
Lou Whitaker - no. Looking back at Lou...He was very good for a very long time...just never great.
Don Mattingly - no. one of my favorites as a kid....but does not cut it for HoF.
Tommy John - Yes. I'd have him barely getting in. Definitely one of the better pitchers in his time and was solid for 20 years + revolutionized the sport via surgery
Albert Belle - Hell no.
Keith Hernandez - very close call. one of the greatest fielding first basemen ever. Great career stats. MVP. key figure in a iconic 1986 team. I say Yes.
Alan Trammell - Like Whitaker..he was good for a long time but had stretches of greatness. I'd say Yes on him.
Al Oliver - An amazing hitter with career stats that are HoF worthy. Does not receive the repeat he should receive. I say yes.
Dave Parker - Yes. Stats to back it up. MVP. 8 time All Star. 5 times in the top 5 in MVP votes.
Ken Boyer - One of the best 3b's of his time. Career fizzled out not allowing him to get my vote. no
Ted Simmons - extremely underrated. Yes.
Minnie Minoso - Dominant OF during his time. Like Allen and Oliva just did not have the career stats to take him over the top.
Lee Smith - Yes. One of the greatest relievers ever.
Fred McGriff - no. great career though.
Roger Clemens - no.
Barry Bonds - no
Luis Tiant - Yes. A top pitcher in the first half of career. Horrible injury and came back and changed his way of pitching and became one of the best again.
some additional
Vada Pinson - very underrated. 250 homers. 300+ steals. 2700+ hits. .286 average. HoF numbers. but barely say no.
Joe Torre (player) - Yes. Dominate catcher in his time. His career as a coach has taken away his career as a player.
Rusty Staub - Had this guy been a Yankee with his career he would of been thought of as a great of the game.....but no.
Mike Mussina - 270 wins but with a high ERA. played in the steroid era so more forgiving on the ERA...but no.
Jerry Koosman - Great stats. With a better win/loss record he'd be in the HoF. - no
Mickey Lolich - Just the same as Jerry....no
Good post. I agree with all of these except for Murphy and Torre.
I always like seeing others who agree Trammell should be in. He was my favorite hometown player during the '80s by far.
- Signed, a biased Tigers fan
Possibly to John and Hernandez
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Definitely Vada Pinson as well; others with similar numbers were early ballot HOFers.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
Just for fun, guess which one of these career stats belong to Gracey and which ones belong to Ryno (although it still took Ryno 3 years to get in):
Hits: 2445
Doubles: 511
HRs: 173
RBIs: 1146
Avg/OBP/Slug: .303/.383/.442
OPS: .825
Hits: 2386
Doubles: 403
HRs: 282
RBIs: 1061
Avg/OBP/Slug: .285/.344/.452
OPS: .795
Gold Glover, All-Star, and true leader on his teams (over Dawson, Sandberg or Sosa).
Don't forget his WS ring, not many players who spent the bulk of their career as a Cub can claim that
As a pitcher, I would argue Kaat was never great. Very good? Sure. Excellent a couple times. But never great. And you gotta be great, to me anyway , to get in the HOF.
Mark Grace, no doubt! Most people will scoff at such a remark but consider two things... he played in the heart of the steroid era and also at a time when "standards" for most positions were being completely destroyed (i.e., power hitters at SS and 2B, contact hitters at 3B/1B). He led all hitters in the 1990 decade in hits and doubles, lifetime .303 batter. Gold Glover, All-Star, and true leader on his teams (over Dawson, Sandberg or Sosa).
John Olerud was better - in pretty much all areas. You want him in the HOF?
Add the fact that Gil won the Gold Glove Award the first 7 years it was awarded. You correctly identified that Gil was in the top two for Home runs and RBI's for the decade of the 1050's.Gil has the highest total of any player in his 15 yrs on the ballot not to be elected to the Hall.would have been the Veterans selection if Roy Campanella had not been ill or been allowed to vote on an absentee ballot!
Should be a slam dunk nominee!
+1000
Gil Hodges being kept out of the HOF is a travesty. Not only did
he have the stats and the longevity, but he was one of the most
decent and classy people ever to play the game.
Something should be done to finally recognize Gil for his accomplishments both on the field and off.
Dave
How many first basemen -- or players at other positions for that matter -- accomplished anything equivalent to the following by the end of Gil Hodges' playing era? ...
?All-time career right-handed home run hitter in the the N.L. and second in the major leagues to Jimmie Foxx (both eventually surpassed by Willie Mays)
All-time career Grand Slam hitter in the N.L. (until surpassed by Hank Aaron)
100 or more RBI seven consecutive years
30 or more HR 6 times, 5 consecutively
3 Gold Gloves (the first 3 awarded; they only started giving them in 1957, toward the latter part of his career)
7 World Series appearances
8 All-Star Game selections as N.L. first baseman
2nd most HR and RBI of any player in the major leagues during the 1950s (Duke Snider was first in both categories)
While his total career stats may not measure up to some other HOF entrants, Hodges was unquestionably a dominating first baseman in his era -- both offensively and defensively -- and one of the best in baseball history. Of the 21 players with at least 300 home runs at the time of his retirement in 1963, he is the only one not in the HOF.
For a cherry on top of the sundae, he won a World Series as a manager of the Mets in 1969. Sadly, he died two and a half years later in April 1972 at the young age of 47.
By the way, like Ted Williams, Hodges lost three seasons to military service with the U.S. Marines in World War II; he was awarded a Bronze Star for heroism under fire for action in southeast Asia.
I believe there is a compelling case for his election to the Hall of Fame.
I have long thought that Gil Hodges deserves entry into the Hall.
How many first basemen -- or players at other positions for that matter -- accomplished anything equivalent to the following by the end of Gil Hodges' playing era? ...
?All-time career right-handed home run hitter in the the N.L. and second in the major leagues to Jimmie Foxx (both eventually surpassed by Willie Mays)
All-time career Grand Slam hitter in the N.L. (until surpassed by Hank Aaron)
100 or more RBI seven consecutive years
30 or more HR 6 times, 5 consecutively
3 Gold Gloves (the first 3 awarded; they only started giving them in 1957, toward the latter part of his career)
7 World Series appearances
8 All-Star Game selections as N.L. first baseman
2nd most HR and RBI of any player in the major leagues during the 1950s (Duke Snider was first in both categories)
While his total career stats may not measure up to some other HOF entrants, Hodges was unquestionably a dominating first baseman in his era -- both offensively and defensively -- and one of the best in baseball history. Of the 21 players with at least 300 home runs at the time of his retirement in 1963, he is the only one not in the HOF.
For a cherry on top of the sundae, he won a World Series as a manager of the Mets in 1969. Sadly, he died two and a half years later in April 1972 at the young age of 47.
By the way, like Ted Williams, Hodges lost three seasons to military service with the U.S. Marines in World War II; he was awarded a Bronze Star for heroism under fire for action in southeast Asia.
I believe there is a compelling case for his election to the Hall of Fame.
Slight correction - he lost two seasons to the military, not three.
I have long thought that Gil Hodges deserves entry into the Hall.
How many first basemen -- or players at other positions for that matter -- accomplished anything equivalent to the following by the end of Gil Hodges' playing era? ...
?All-time career right-handed home run hitter in the the N.L. and second in the major leagues to Jimmie Foxx (both eventually surpassed by Willie Mays)
All-time career Grand Slam hitter in the N.L. (until surpassed by Hank Aaron)
100 or more RBI seven consecutive years
30 or more HR 6 times, 5 consecutively
3 Gold Gloves (the first 3 awarded; they only started giving them in 1957, toward the latter part of his career)
7 World Series appearances
8 All-Star Game selections as N.L. first baseman
2nd most HR and RBI of any player in the major leagues during the 1950s (Duke Snider was first in both categories)
While his total career stats may not measure up to some other HOF entrants, Hodges was unquestionably a dominating first baseman in his era -- both offensively and defensively -- and one of the best in baseball history. Of the 21 players with at least 300 home runs at the time of his retirement in 1963, he is the only one not in the HOF.
For a cherry on top of the sundae, he won a World Series as a manager of the Mets in 1969. Sadly, he died two and a half years later in April 1972 at the young age of 47.
By the way, like Ted Williams, Hodges lost three seasons to military service with the U.S. Marines in World War II; he was awarded a Bronze Star for heroism under fire for action in southeast Asia.
I believe there is a compelling case for his election to the Hall of Fame.
Slight correction - he lost two seasons to the military, not three.
Very well said!
Ted Williams BS Move
I know youse guys are of the notion that one great year must never put anyone in the HOF. The HOF itself has standards. Be that as it may, some people in baseball put more in one year than the half dozen solid seasons the HOF deems a candidate should have. One individual I name had a solid career, but also had one defining moment in baseball history.
Therefore, besides Gil Hodges, I would like to see Roger Maris, Thurman Munson, Minnie Minoso, Tommy John, Bobby Thomson, Smoky Joe Wood, and Colby Jack Coombs. Some of these gentlemen had a few great seasons---outstanding seasons. Bobby Thomson had the greatest moment in baseball history, and no one would let him forget it---he was known as a clutch hero until the day he died. Joe Wood had 1912---INCREDIBLE. Jack Coombs---take the time to read his piece on the SABR site. For a few years he was amazing.
I would like to have named Dick Allen, but the way he walked out on his team in '74 was utterly disgraceful. I'd have contributed some dough to have Mr. Ed talk some sense into him to get back in a Sox uniform and play with all the might of his power! In reality, of course, ....
You know, I cannot put these guys in the HOF with the lousy argument, "because they put in so and so, who should not have been enshrined in the first place, they should put my guy in". There WERE some buddy-buddy Veterans Committe elections going on in the 60s-70s. Then there's Joe Jackson, and Pete Rose, and the ROIDs; we cannot forget the ROIDs--Big Mac, Rotten Barry Bogus Bonds, and Slammin' Sammy point to his Ma, but now we're ALL pointing at him accusingly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's messed up now.
So what do we have? An endless hot stove league of who belongs, and who don't.
So, collect who you like, and if they get in, surprise-surprise. ---Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.