for the pillar dollar / mex 8 reales folks >>>

ebaybuyer

a friend asked me to evaluate his small collection, in the group i found this
one of the few in the bunch that i know absolutely NOTHING about. so this is for those that do. so far ive been able to establish its an 1803 and that it is an om mint (mexican) weighs 26.8g and it has chop marks, im sure there are repros so i told him not to get his hopes up until i put it in front of some people who know them. but this one looks like it could be the real deal, what do you think ?

DorkGirl

Run it over to the World coins forum. That's where the experts on these are.

rawmorgan

It looks "like" a Carlos IV 8 reale, With a Mexico City Mint Mark and the Assayers initials of F T.

Although from the pics you have it looks off.

The splits in the metal around the date, the exaggerated possible re engraving around the chin and nose.

The wear is just off, the relief too high in some places.

All in all it looks either fake or very messed with.

I keep a piece of eight from 1796 as my pocket piece and between looking at that and the image you have.

I am leaning toward fake.

ebaybuyer

the "re-engraving" around the chin and nose look like chop marks in my pics

LindeDad

Look at the size of the chops compared to what you see on Trade dollars.
I'm in the older fake crowd here also.

TomB

The chops found in this era (early nineteenth century) are, in my experience, smaller than those found on Trade dollars. I vote real with real chops.

rawmorgan

the "re-engraving" around the chin and nose look like chop marks in my pics

I'm talking about the massive shadowing under the chin, next to the throat, and lower lip makes the area looked tooled or re engraved.

FWIW here's my 1796

jayPem

Here's one I picked up for about $35...I've sold a couple others very similar on ebay, $50-$70 range if the bidders show up.
The one you have seems a little damaged/dinged (as opposed to mine which is merely scrubbed )
I don't know if 1803 is a better date or not though....

commoncents05

<< <i>The chops found in this era (early nineteenth century) are, in my experience, smaller than those found on Trade dollars. I vote real with real chops. >>



I agree with Tom.

-Paul

mrpotatoheadd

There's nothing suspicious about the size of the chops. It's pretty common for portraits to come with lots of tiny ones. The weight is fine and the splits at the date are most likely stress cracks from striking.

jayPem

Rawmorgan...I like that mix of small and large chops ! Haven't seen that before.

TwoKopeiki

If you post images of the edge it would help greatly with the diagnostic. As it stands right now, i don't like the uneven dentils. I think this might be a Boston style forgery (full weight silver coins made for the China overseas trade in several locations in the US and OUTSIDE the US).

ebaybuyer

this is the best i can do

stealer

<< <i>Look at the size of the chops compared to what you see on Trade dollars.
I'm in the older fake crowd here also.
>>


The chops are from a completely different era and often come that sized. I can't say if the coin is real but it is definitely not unusual for the chops to come in that shape/size

TwoKopeiki

Edge is cruder than you would see coming out of Mexico those days. Can you see spots of overlapping edge patterns? These were edged using a 2 die mechanism and due to that should have two overlaps directly a cross from each other. The crude edge does make me think it's a Boston counterfeit. Since these were of proper silver alloy both TPGs actually slab them as genuine.

ebaybuyer

i dont see any overlapping, the edge design looks consistent, squares and circles, alternating

ebaybuyer

does anyone have a pic of what the edge shold look like on a genuine piece ?

jayPem

What era are the Boston forgeries from ?
Are they more common or less common than the real thing ?

TwoKopeiki

Boston forgeries were made about around 1870-1900 and were made because of the premium paid over face value for "bustman dollars" by Chinese. In terms of how much was made? No idea. These are not exactly official issues, so records were not kept.