Lost card turns up with an auction house

OckhamsRazor · September 10, 2012 1:38AM

I'd like to get some opinions on what I should do, if anything, regarding the following situation:

I purchased a PSA card in April, 2008 off of eBay. The purchase price was in excess of $1K. The seller sent it insured via US Mail. The card was lost somewhere in transit. I received a refund for my purchase. The seller filed a claim with USPS and, apparently, was taken care of. The seller never received the card back. I have always kept a lookout for that specific card and, after reviewing the items listed with an auction house, discovered this specific card is listed in their catalog.

So, do I notify the post office regarding this item? Or the auction house that the consignor of this item does not have a clean title to this card? Do auction house's typically want to find out about an issue such as this? I'd rather keep the details generic at this point and not cast any aspersions upon the auction house or anyone else.

Thanks for your input.

gregmo32 · September 10, 2012 1:50AM

I would contact them.

dennis07 · September 10, 2012 2:01AM

There's probably a whole list of people who would like to know starting with the Postal service and the FBI. I wonder what the statute of limitations is on this type of crime? 4 years?
Edited to reflect the money Mom spent on my college education.

billwaltonsbeard · September 10, 2012 2:17AM

Interesting.

Does anyone dare ask who the Auction House is?

Mickey71 · September 10, 2012 2:32AM

Ockhamsrazor,
Did you ever get your cards back that were stolen about a year ago? I bought 2 cards on EBAY from an Illinois woman a 63 Aaron and 60 Mays...both in a PSA 9. You contacted me immediately that they were your cards. I was like oh crap as I got them for a really great deal. Then you contacted me that the cards were not stolen. All the while I was posting this on the boards......and being quite embarrassed and being questioned as to why I was jumping the gun about my purchases. Then you contacted me and said that it was the scans of the cards you own and that other cards were in fact stolen. Have always wondered what happened and truly felt I was left a little hanging especially since you were the one contacting me about the cards that were not stolen.

Mickey71

mccardguy1 · September 10, 2012 2:34AM

<< Interesting.

Does anyone dare ask who the Auction House is? >>

I would think this is less an issue with the auction house than an issue with the postal service having employees who may have pilfered the card.

Now if the auction house is notified and they do nothing....that is a different story.

Maurice · September 10, 2012 2:47AM

<< I would think this is less an issue with the auction house than an issue with the postal service having employees who may have pilfered the card.

Now if the auction house is notified and they do nothing....that is a different story. >>

I'm not sure the auction house has an obligation to do anything at this point. Where's the documentation of a USPS insurance claim being paid? It's possible the ebay seller from 2008 wasn't happy with the price, made up a story about the package getting lost, and refunded the money to Ockham.

cardcountry · September 10, 2012 3:04AM

I think Maurice nailed it

hammered · September 10, 2012 3:21AM

<< I think Maurice nailed it >>

I'd make a contact with both the PO and the auction house in the event that it actually was stolen.
But I agree it was most likely seller's remorse.

KbKards · September 10, 2012 3:25AM

How can the OP know for sure that the card pictured in the original Ebay listing existed, or was even shipped. It's not uncommon for pictures of similar cards to be borrowed to make a sale. It's also not uncommon for sellers to be unable to supply the card in question or to change their mind about selling a card after the sale. The easiest way to escape unscathed from that situation is to issue a refund and claim the card was lost. I don't think the OP should do anything based on what little he knows or understands about what could have gone down.

hammered · September 10, 2012 3:34AM

I assumed that it was a graded card with a specific cert #, in which case it is a reasonable assumption that the original seller had that specific card, especially if it was a rare issue or grade.

I think doing nothing is the wrong call. Yes it is possible that the original seller never possessed the card, made a sale, and couldn't deliver, but I think that is unlikely.

Better to take a few minutes to do some notifications just in case this is being auctioned by a thief.

LeonLuckey · September 10, 2012 4:12AM

This isn't a case for the FBI (unless it's a ring of thieves) or the Postal Inspector. It might be a case for a Postal Agent though. Postal Inspectors take care of external affairs and Postal Agents take care of internal affairs. I would contact the auction house first and the Post Office second. Then I would be done with it.
I run a small auction house and we saw 2 of our cards, that were lost in the mail, turn up being sold by a consignment ebay company on ebay. Come to find out they got them from a Post Office employee....hence the call I received from a Postal Agent investigating the matter. We have CIA insurance so they were the rightful owners at this point because they had paid our claim. I am not sure what came of the matter. Everyone on our end was taken care of.

dennis07 · September 10, 2012 4:13AM

"Ever since the Seinfeld episode where Jerry corrects Kramer I've known it's "statute" not "statue" but everyone understands it either way so blah!"

I caught my error as I re-read it after posting and meant to get back to correct it. It is possible for a statue to have limitations though.....

packCollector · September 10, 2012 4:19AM

I just went through a simliar situation.

A card I sold for $450 that was lost was sold on ebay. I contacted thte seller to find out he bought it from the postal service. They have monthly auctions and sell stuff buy the pallet. All the stuff that is undeliverable or damage, etc.

I had no luck getting anywhere with the post office. I guess it is in the fine print that they are entitled to whatever they lose.

LeonLuckey · September 10, 2012 4:26AM

I think it goes state to state on statutes of limitations. However, this being federal, I doubt 4 yrs has reached too much time for a federal offense as this would be. (if it got stolen somehow in the mail)

LeonLuckey · September 10, 2012 4:30AM

I think our case was different. Our situation is that the 2 cards never got to the recipient we mailed them to. They were "lost" in the mail and then a postal employee consigned or sold them to the ebay consignment company. This was not ordinary "lost, damaged or left behind" items. These were lost AND found by a Postal Employee. That is not a good situation.

sportscardtheory · September 10, 2012 4:34AM

<< It is possible for a statue to have limitations though..... >>

Don't even.

OckhamsRazor · September 10, 2012 5:26AM

Thank you for the comments so far. I tried to keep it simple, but for clarity's sake, I'll add some more detail. The seller did send a package via USPS and provided me with the tracking number. The tracking data on that package showed the item was shipped and scanned at various points in the distribution system and then went MIA. This was not a case of the seller refusing to physically send the card. Long after I received my refund, I tracked the package and still received the same result. So I have no basis to disbelieve the seller when they said they received payment on their claim and never received the card back. The seller was an active distributor of sports cards on ebay at the time. However, they are no longer active on ebay.

This card, at this grade, has only sold eight times since this transaction in 2008. The original transaction, and image, is still visible on VCP. The VCP image appears to match the photo in the catalog, and, obviously, the serial numbers are identical.

Based on the problematic tracking, I'd always assumed the card was pilfered in transit.

goraiders · September 10, 2012 5:28AM

<< Ockhamsrazor,
Did you ever get your cards back that were stolen about a year ago? I bought 2 cards on EBAY from an Illinois woman a 63 Aaron and 60 Mays...both in a PSA 9. You contacted me immediately that they were your cards. I was like oh crap as I got them for a really great deal. Then you contacted me that the cards were not stolen. All the while I was posting this on the boards......and being quite embarrassed and being questioned as to why I was jumping the gun about my purchases. Then you contacted me and said that it was the scans of the cards you own and that other cards were in fact stolen. Have always wondered what happened and truly felt I was left a little hanging especially since you were the one contacting me about the cards that were not stolen.

Mickey71 >>

Looks like the wondering continues...

Goodsport40 · September 10, 2012 6:07AM

Welcome Leon!

Nice avatar!

Robert

packCollector · September 10, 2012 6:10AM

<< Thank you for the comments so far. I tried to keep it simple, but for clarity's sake, I'll add some more detail. The seller did send a package via USPS and provided me with the tracking number. The tracking data on that package showed the item was shipped and scanned at various points in the distribution system and then went MIA. This was not a case of the seller refusing to physically send the card. Long after I received my refund, I tracked the package and still received the same result. So I have no basis to disbelieve the seller when they said they received payment on their claim and never received the card back. The seller was an active distributor of sports cards on ebay at the time. However, they are no longer active on ebay.

This card, at this grade, has only sold eight times since this transaction in 2008. The original transaction, and image, is still visible on VCP. The VCP image appears to match the photo in the catalog, and, obviously, the serial numbers are identical.
>>

this is the same thing that happened to my card which ended up being sold in a bulk lot by the postal service.

We tend to think the worst

<< Based on the problematic tracking, I'd always assumed the card was pilfered in transit. >>

but it is highly probable that the label was destroyed so it was sent to the 'undeliverable mail' hub.

Klif50 · September 10, 2012 9:26AM

I remember the USPO having a selling ID on ebay and they would list all the collectibles that were either undeliverable, fell out of damaged boxes or items that showed up after the claim was paid. In this case they had full legal right and they would even post the serial number of certified coins in the auctions. I guess this got too tedious for them after a while since they always had several hundred auctions up at any one time and it was probably costing them money having to pay someone to run the auctions so they pulled out of ebay and went back to selling bulk lots, pallet loads of stuff in their advertised auctions. I'm pretty sure they made more than they paid out on insurance claims but I could be wrong. It's been quite a few years and my memory fades.

vladguerrero · September 10, 2012 9:49AM

Just buy it.

Mickey71 · September 11, 2012 4:13AM

I'm feeling like I will never get an answer to my question....which is a little unsettling to me.

Mickey71

aberdeentradingco · September 11, 2012 4:48AM

typically, the clock on any "statute of limitations" should begin with "discovery"... this seems to have just occurred.... it has nothing to do when the original item went missing (accidentally lost in the mail)... it's when the
original item is discovered to have been, shall we say, "stolen"... which is now, not 2008...

the trouble is that either the post office or an insurance company is the owner of this card (if it is what you suggest it is) since it appears that they paid for it by reimbursing the parties injured by the loss in '08...

i think i would contact the original seller first to confirm that he really never got it back at a later date... then consider contacting the post office, or suggest that he do so...

if you've been compensated for your loss, then the card is not yours.... and you really have no legal standing in this.... except as an interested bystander...

packCollector · September 11, 2012 5:56AM

<< if you've been compensated for your loss, then the card is not yours.... and you really have no legal standing in this.... except as an interested bystander... >>

what if the card was uninsured and you were not compensated? would that change things?

aberdeentradingco · September 11, 2012 1:12PM

...."what if the card was uninsured and you were not compensated? "

to Packcollector....
it would changes things in my mind... but, the buyer should have attempted to recover the loss from the seller and/or paypal first.... one or the other might refund the payment...

beyond that... it gets kind of sticky, i think...

first, why would the buyer risk waiting several years in the hopes that the card might show up in another auction and that he would become aware of it....
but, even if it did somehow reach that point, the buyer would need to have in his possession photocopies of the e-bay auction including screen grabs of the lost card showing exclusive identifying features such as the
PSA serial #... along with some type of proof that the item was actually shipped to him and lost by the post office in the first place....

otherwise, the new auctioneer could claim that he obtained the card legitimately from another party, and suggest in the process, that the buyer who claims never receiving the card, actually did receive it and re-sold to someone who ultimately sold it to the new auctioneer...

twisted... you bet...

that's why i would suggest never signing for any package that appears damaged or tampered with... it would be best to, if possible, open it in front of a postal employee after detailing the contents to that person... or, to simply refuse delivery on the grounds that the item is damaged... that forces the seller to deal with the loss...

vladguerrero · September 11, 2012 2:20PM

<< I'm feeling like I will never get an answer to my question....which is a little unsettling to me.

Mickey71 >>

I would like to hear it as well.

Mickey71 · September 12, 2012 7:43AM

Just to add to the craziness...I was calling PAYPAL and telling them that the cards were stolen...then calling them back with the cards were not stolen. I was feeling real crappy. The cards I believe were registered to a registry guy who has some great stuff. So Ockhamsrazor must be this person if he was the one contacting me. I just don't understand why I have never been given any info as to what really went on when I was the one who was contacted. Also, I was thinking I might get contacted by the police or something. There's alot more info but I don't have all day.

When I contacted the woman (seller on EBAY) she said she was selling for a male friend who was just showing her how to list the stuff for him and that the guy was going to ship the stuff. She was quite nice.........until I had some questions and the real crook in her was coming out. I ceased all communication at that time.

Lost card turns up with an auction house

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