Bird/Dr J/Magic PSA 10 on the bay

galaxy27

Have had this auction saved since the inception to see where it ended when the dust settled, and it has been heading in the wrong direction over the past 24 hours. Apparently "entering the wrong amount" has become contagious with this listing. Amid the shenanigans, one of the retractions was initiated by the consignee.........which is rather refreshing.

Linkage

MattyC

Wow. Thanks for the intel and research on the bidding there.

I was looking hard at it as well; now you have to wonder if this auction price is higher than the last several sales not just because of some pent up demand (one hasn't been on the market in a bit) but because the consignee has friends lobbing in bids or something shady like that. Scares away legit bidders like myself. Pass.

llafoe

Does it have a slight tilt or is it just an optical illusion in the holder?

flatfoot816

yikes on the retractions!

gregmo32

I noticed the same thing. This is one of my "white whales" but the cost will likely always be prohibitive for me. I saw the card go from $10,100 and back to $10,000 in a few minutes. No it is down to $9000 ands change a couple days later, as if someone was checking to see what the high bid was.... and found out.

brianwintersfan

<< <i>Does it have a slight tilt or is it just an optical illusion in the holder? >>



I see it as well

Brick

Personally "tilt" and "Gem Mint" should not be used in the description of the same card. Looks to me like a nice PSA 8. Except for the tilt.

MattyC

I agree the tilt is unattractive, especially in a GEM MT 10 card. Yet maybe 8 is harsh on this card. All the 8s I've seen are pretty flawed in one way or another. The centering is good and corners look quite sharp. Also doesn't seem to have surface issues like so many others. The slight tilt perhaps still falls under 10 guidelines?

IMO, I don't have a huge issue with the grade; more concerned with the alleged consignee bid.

However if that is a tiny smudge on the Dr. J panel by his name, I'd likely get a 9PD every time I subbed that card.

mikeschmidt

Wow -- really bad bidding patterns going on here:

Bid retraction and cancellation history

Bidder Action / Explanation Date of Bid and Retraction
j***j( 2802) Retracted: US $9,700.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Aug-31-12 20:53:10 PDT
Retracted: Sep-05-12 00:23:24 PDT
r***i( 237) Retracted: US $10,000.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Aug-31-12 20:27:37 PDT
Retracted: Sep-04-12 16:30:21 PDT
t***t( 0 ) Cancelled: US $10,100.00
Explanation: Canceled by PWCC due to low feedback score Bid: Sep-03-12 13:54:47 PDT
Cancelled: Sep-03-12 16:51:38 PDT
e***j( 43) Retracted: US $9,900.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Aug-31-12 21:35:13 PDT
Retracted: Sep-04-12 23:14:13 PDT
0***8( 0 ) Retracted: US $10,150.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Sep-03-12 11:59:31 PDT
Retracted: Sep-03-12 12:43:19 PDT

ClockworkAngel

Getting this in a PSA 10 is on my short list of cards I want at some point, though if I am going to spend that kind of money on a card, it won't have a tilt.

To be honest, I am really getting sick of seeing cards like this and that 1975 Topps Nolan Ryan PSA 8 with the water stain being totally misgraded. Meanwhile, I can't catch a break from PSA to save my life. I've whined too many times about this, but it's just so frustrating and feels so shady. How in the hell does that grade a 10 with that tilt? And why are all the "misgraded" ones always seem to be sold by the same sellers and/or consignors.

PWCC has a couple 9's that look better than this IMO

sportscardtheory

I'm guessing that sometimes a card is so perfect in every other way, that a slight tilt like this becomes an outlier.

ClockworkAngel

Disagree. a Tilted card should never be a 10...should be automatic eliminator

sportscardtheory

<< <i>Disagree. a Tilted card should never be a 10...should be automatic eliminator >>



My comment was about the perception of a grader and not about whether or not it's the correct way to grade a card. I can see a grader using that line of thinking, was my point. Whether it is correct, I do not know.

PaulMaul

<< <i>

<< <i>Disagree. a Tilted card should never be a 10...should be automatic eliminator >>



So long as the borders fall within spec of a 10 PSA will allow a tilt. Does it effect the eye appeal? Sure, so the card might not fetch the same amount as a true blazer.

Centering, tilt, corners ... they are the easier of things to see that's why we give then so much attention. When's the last time anyone's gone off about a surface wrinkle or bump and yet it's these latter elements that I wager usually keep cards people think are perfect out of that category. >>



I think what bothers people is that tiny surface bumps are, as you correctly point out, hammered by PSA, while tilt and diamond cuts, which many (including myself) find to be much more visually disturbing, are completely unpenalized in many cases. The fact that they're "the easier of things to see" explains why they make a card so ugly.

IMHO, it's not good enough assess tilt simply based on the centering criteria, since that allows for horrendously ugly cards to be graded as 8's and 9's.

WrigleyCub

Also, above the "G" in Erving there is a black smudge. Compound that with the tilt, I have no idea how this card graded a 10.

MattyC

The last several posts are all correct: grading is very subjective and I am sure that certain trends can prevail among graders and their workplace culture, such as surface issues or the faintest corner touch automatically eliminating a card from 10 consideration-- and yet tilt, albeit slight in many cases, time and again does not knock a card out of the 10-echelon.

Personally, were I to start a grading company, centering and tilt would be the main factors that could right off the bat preclude a 10 grade, but that's just me, and many of us here-- and some graders too, I'm sure.

Someone above said that this card in 10 is on their list, but to throw down somewhere btw 6500 and 10K, the card has to be perfect in every way: none of the usual smudging, no line under Magic's side, GEM MT corners and perfect centering-- and I would also add, after myriad discussions of this card with my brother (a fellow collector and esp into basketball), even spacing/centering of perforations within the panel, in other words when looking at the card panels the perforations should not result in terribly OC panels were they hypothetically to be broken. I find it hurts the eye appeal when the Dr J panel is OC in terms of the perforation placement.

This card is truly a beast to even find in strong 9, and has two amazing RCs of huge sports stars on it-- as many have said it's a top tier sportscard and will likely rise over time. After discussing it with many fellow collectors on another thread yesterday, I think I'll keep my quest for a superb 9, but will always be tempted by a true 10. This one's tilt puts me off for the money. It may also hammer for a grand or so less, in a parallel universe where we are sure the owner is not bidding somehow.

And the smudge on the Dr J panel is what really turned me off from jump street. When I first saw it I was so amped to win it, but then I looked at it closely. Bummer!

Doublestriker

Yeah Grading is subjective. Here is my PSA 9 which I think could possibly bump to a 10.

MBMiller25

<< <i>Yeah Grading is subjective. Here is my PSA 9 which I think could possibly bump to a 10. >>



Mine has been reviewed at least three times that I know of.

bbuckner22

Matt's and the other 9 shown are both light years nicer than the actual 10 being auctioned.

ahkmedbinladen

Lots of room to move but beautiful centering between the panels in Mbs compared to Doublestriker's. If Im gonna own a 9...Id take Doublestriker's all day long. Good luck with a Review. Mb-save your money and dont let your card make a fourth trip.

PaulMaul

<< <i>Wow -- really bad bidding patterns going on here:

Bid retraction and cancellation history

Bidder Action / Explanation Date of Bid and Retraction
j***j( 2802) Retracted: US $9,700.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Aug-31-12 20:53:10 PDT
Retracted: Sep-05-12 00:23:24 PDT
r***i( 237) Retracted: US $10,000.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Aug-31-12 20:27:37 PDT
Retracted: Sep-04-12 16:30:21 PDT
t***t( 0 ) Cancelled: US $10,100.00
Explanation: Canceled by PWCC due to low feedback score Bid: Sep-03-12 13:54:47 PDT
Cancelled: Sep-03-12 16:51:38 PDT
e***j( 43) Retracted: US $9,900.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Aug-31-12 21:35:13 PDT
Retracted: Sep-04-12 23:14:13 PDT
0***8( 0 ) Retracted: US $10,150.00
Explanation: Entered wrong amount Bid: Sep-03-12 11:59:31 PDT
Retracted: Sep-03-12 12:43:19 PDT >>




I'm shocked these BS bid retractions are still allowed. Probability that three bidders "entered the wrong amount" and it took them all 4-5 days to figure that out? Zilch.

Doublestriker

My PSA 9 actually was a BVG 9 I crossed it at this years National.



Matt...Nice Card! I like yours as much as mine.

BPorter26

Mine isnt as nice as Dustin's or Matt's

Doublestriker

Bobby...Looks good to me. Probably splitting hairs on each of them.

JasonM32

This card is my White Whale. Looks like it sold for big money. I don't if I am willing to overpay for a PSA 10 when many of them are indistinguishable from the 9's. Perhaps I'll end up with a 10 someday but right now it seems pretty far away. Now that this PSA 10 has sold we can expect the next BVG 9.5 to be listed for an obscene price.

Doublestriker

Speaking of PSA 9 Bird Magic's How in the world did this one end at this price?

PWCC Auction Link

Ebay is so unpredictable!

MattyC

The Dr J panel on that PWCC 9 is way way OC; kinda hurts eye appeal, I know that's why I didn't bid. Shame because otherwise it was so very strong a 9. The other 9 had tilt. Sweet 9s are tough indeed.

gregmo32

My eventual PSA 10 will have to come from a self submission. This card is as difficult as any modern star card to get in truly gem mint condition. Finding one free of print dots, smudges, and even random black lines is almost impossible.
That is why it is so frustrating to see a PSA 10 that is not completely lacking those. The difference between a PSA 9 (which is hard enough) and a PSA 10 is about ten to fifteen times the value, so perfection should be expected.
Couple that with the fact that the card features the Rookie Card of two of the five best players in the history of a sport... and you have a monstrous white whale

gc1213

Such a tough card. Great 9s posted up there. I ended up with a smudge free PSA 8. Top bottom centering was a little rough but not too terrible. Something that made me settle for an 8 (at least for the time being) was that every individual panel was well centered. This clearly isn't a factor to PSA but for me it's a big deal. I ended up paying $200 so wasn't a bad place holder until my dream 9 surfaces one day. I'll post post scans when I have the card near a scanner next.

Couldn't agre more on the point of perfection for this card in a PSA 10. For that premium it should be lights out better than the 9s and sadly I have never seen that perfect 10.

Congrats on the BVG crossover. I thought about doing that a while back when i was shopping for one but was scared off by some EOT stories I heard from BVG crosses.

galaxy27

<< <i>Disagree. a Tilted card should never be a 10...should be automatic eliminator >>



At face value I agree with this. Tilt/centering is the most palpable deficiency when I initially view a card. At the same time, however, I do understand the guidelines set forth by PSA. If slight allowances didn't exist, you'd have immaculate 50.1/49.9 cards sitting in 9 holders from a purely technical standpoint, and very few would find that pragmatic. But quite obviously a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere, and things becomes dicey when the outer limits are threatened. Bottom line is that PSA is the TPG, but we're the ultimate judge and jury.

MattyC

Galaxy,

I couldn't agree more, and that is exactly what needs to be remembered by so many of our fellow collectors.

Too often people expect TPG companies and their graders to "get it right." Yet any type of grading is so highly subjective even BEFORE we begin to account for human error. Do I believe in striving to eliminate human error in any business and demand extreme competence bordering on perfection? You bet; but we all know what happens-- whether people are getting paid twenty an hour or two mil a year, they inevitably screw up. Cards that belong in 9 holders get 10s, and vice versa.

The beauty of the actual market is that WE CORRECT THOSE MISTAKES. That's why the sale of a truly perfect 10 is greater than the lesser 10. And the same is true for every grade; VCP shows that the collectors out there will bid up the better centered examples beyond their lesser-appealing counterparts in the same exact numbered holder. So we all are the final judges.

If the flip says 10 or 9 and the "beholder of the holder" thinks the card is under or over-graded, he can bid accordingly, and let the chips fall. When buying this way, TPG is really just a guideline. Just because a card is GRADE X doesn't mean one has to pay GRADE X VCP AVG price for it at all.

Now are there those that will bid a flip to the moon and ignore the card inside? Sure, but if someone wants to pay top dollar for a smudged 10 and is okay with it, hey, as long as they are happy.

Anytime money is involved though, I can see how the owner of a lights out, 10-worthy PSA 9 will perhaps boil at seeing a lesser card in a 10 holder commanding 10K. But that is life and luck. If owning for a personal collection, I honestly could care less what the flip says: I know when a 9 is really as good as a 10. I also think owning a card in GRADE X when it is really as good as GRADE X+1 (at least to the naked eye) is the most satisfying thing, as a buyer of course, because you saved a ton of money! Now again as a seller, I could see frustration when looking at the lesser card getting a 10, but in the end I do believe that if the card is genuinely 10-worthy, if it matters that much then with enough resubs it will eventually get what it deserves...

Which if you have my luck in life is lost in the mail.


The bottom line for me is that finding a Bird/Magic in gorgeous 9 or truly deserving 10 is a major goal. A tough, tough sportscard.

I put it up there with the 51 Mick, 52 Bowman Mick, and of course a slew of other cards that I'm shocked don't sell for much, much more than they do.

cardbender

That PWCC PSA 9 Bird/Magic rookie that sold for over $1300 is close to being miscut within the perforations area.
To me, that's not a true 9.

ClockworkAngel

There is another PSA 9 he is selling that went for much less that looks a little better...but I can't tell if it has a tilt or not....?

Regardless, it looks like a $400 difference in what they sold for....

Text

galaxy27

Exactly, Matt. And not to belabor all of this, but subjectivity is basically what you make of it. All too often I read posts where people dwell on the downside of it, yet they completely gloss over the times when it worked out beautifully in their favor. I'd be willing to bet that for every time PSA "slights" a particular someone, it's ultimately evened out by that one cat out of 1,000 who paid a VCP-premium for a separate card listed on eBay by the same "slighted" individual.

schapko

schapko

I am thinking of cracking my BVG 9 out and submitting it to PSA. The card looks perfect. L/R Centering 50/50 and T/B Centering 55/45. No print marks I can see, perfect corners and edges. I just measured the card and it is exactly 2.5" wide but is slightly less than 3 and 17/32 tall. This is just and I mean just over 3.5". I measured other 80/81 topps I have and they are exactly 3.5". Would this prevent it from crossing to a PSA 9 or 10?

Doublestriker

I crossed mine at this years National it was a BVG 9 to a PSA 9. I did not crack it. I just submitted it for review.

Toro

Although nice, the above two examples belong inthe holder they are in. The PSA 10, well, ouch....

sayheykid54

For $14,000++ I would expect the card to have better centering. I can't get past the tilt on the card.