Wells Fargo St. Gaudens
JWAR
Posts: 83
I have heard alot of stories about the Wells Fargo St. Gaudens. Does anyone know the real story or have info about these coins?
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<< <i>markeing-gimmick pedigree, no real significance >>
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
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<< <i>They were slabbed prior to the sale and have a reputation as having generous grades assigned to them. >>
This is much of what you need to know about the Wells Fargo hoard.
<< <i>Was the WF hoard the same as the Binion (sp?) hoard? >>
Not the same hoard.
Perryhall's answer is all you need.
<< <i>Large hoard of 1908 NM Saints found in the vault of a Wells Fargo Bank. Heavily hyped at the time they were marketed to investors and collectors. They were slabbed prior to the sale and have a reputation as having generous grades assigned to them. >>
I believe they were found in another location originally and moved to a Wells Fargo bank awaiting disposition. But provenance is not all that important in a generic market like
1908 nm mint state saints. I feel some of the nicer graded saints come from this hoard. I've seen less MS65 WF Saints optimistically graded than I do in the general population.
And we have to realize that the NM saints come flattish looking with less detail showing than the common Philly dates of the 1920's. An untrained eye would call a lot of these coins
AU. As David Hall states on PCGS coin facts, most 1908 nm's looked "ratty" before the WF hoard showed up. Imo there's a lot to be said for crisp luster, original toning, and few marks.
The WF Saint's are mint fresh with all the color and luster one would expect from an untouched hoard. Many of them have that nice coppery look to them that gem gold enthusiasts
love. If you gave me the choice (sight-unseen) between any old 1908 MS65 saint and one from the WF hoard, I'd take the WF coin every time both for provenance and quality. There
are far less 65's in the hoard than 66's. The WF hoard represents nearly the entire MS67 1908 no population. The stickering rate so far on 65-67 1908 WF saints does suggest that as
a group they were graded more liberally than other 1908 nm's. I was sort of surprised to see that. Either that or dealers don't bother submitting them as often as other 1908 NM's. It's
probably also true that a lot of the nicer WF saints were cracked out over the past 10 yrs when MS Saint standards slipped.
<< <i>
<< <i>Was the WF hoard the same as the Binion (sp?) hoard? >>
Not the same hoard.
Perryhall's answer is all you need. >>
Really, his answer may still lead people to
think the coins were really owned by Well
Fargo, when they were really owned by
a customer. Did you realize the WF name
was actually liscenced ,so they could use it
on the slabs and promotion?
<< <i>Did you realize the WF name was actually liscenced ,so they could use it on the slabs and promotion? >>
I did not realize this. Thanks for the info COALPORTER
<< <i>I saw a MS67 sell for half of the price of a CAC stickered MS67? Is this due to the bad rap of them being overgraded? >>
That or perhaps it could be due to the fact that they are actually overgraded
Of course, it depends on the actual coins in question. Do you have any links or photos?
<< <i>I saw a MS67 sell for half of the price of a --- stickered MS67? Is this due to the bad rap of them being overgraded? >>
Stickered standards on Saints are effectively how they were graded 15 yrs ago. So that eliminates a large % of recently graded
saints into the non-stickerable pile. I checked the site and they have only stickered 7 WF 1908 NM's in MS67. That's a pretty tiny
amount considering 1700 or so MS67's were orig graded between PCGS/NGC. Less than 100 pcs in MS67 of all dates have stickered.
It would appear that the standard for a 1908 nm in MS67 to sticker is pretty high.
But roadrunner has added some interesting perspective.
<< <i>If I recall the pop accurately there were 80+ MS68's graded.
minted directly into old coin tubes????
<< <i>I saw a MS67 sell for half of the price of a CAC stickered MS67? Is this due to the bad rap of them being overgraded? >>
I would attribute it to (1) the reputation of liberal grading with these coins and (2) the reputation of CAC as being especially tough of Saint Gaudens Double Eagles (according to some).
Huge hoard came from a Wells Fargo Bank SDB. All Unc.
100% Positive BST transactions
<< <i>If I recall the pop accurately there were 80+ MS68's graded.
While it is possible that the coins were of unusually high quality, draw your own conclusions:
Populations of 1908 No Motto Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Certified by PCGS:
* For purposes of any intellectual property claims to the data all data is available in the public domain from auction records; however, all numbers have been checked against PCGS Population Reports as of 9-4-2012.
** Includes one plus graded coin.
Note: The total population of all Saint Gaudens Double Eagles (for all dates and mint marks) by PCGS is 1171 (MS67), 108 (MS68), and 11 (MS69).
Summary of the data: Of the 1908 No Motto Saint Gaudens pieces, Wells Fargo coins account for 91.02% of all MS67s, 99.01% of MS68s, and 100% of all MS69. For the entire series, considering all dates, mint marks, and varieties, the Wells Fargo coins account for 67.55% of all MS67s, 92.59% of all MS68s, and 90.91% of all MS69 coins.
Edited for chart formatting.
<< <i>
<< <i>Large hoard of 1908 NM Saints found in the vault of a Wells Fargo Bank. Heavily hyped at the time they were marketed to investors and collectors. They were slabbed prior to the sale and have a reputation as having generous grades assigned to them. >>
I believe they were found in another location originally and moved to a Wells Fargo bank awaiting disposition. But provenance is not all that important in a generic market like
1908 nm mint state saints. I feel some of the nicer graded saints come from this hoard. I've seen less MS65 WF Saints optimistically graded than I do in the general population.
And we have to realize that the NM saints come flattish looking with less detail showing than the common Philly dates of the 1920's. An untrained eye would call a lot of these coins
AU. As David Hall states on PCGS coin facts, most 1908 nm's looked "ratty" before the WF hoard showed up. Imo there's a lot to be said for crisp luster, original toning, and few marks.
The WF Saint's are mint fresh with all the color and luster one would expect from an untouched hoard. Many of them have that nice coppery look to them that gem gold enthusiasts
love. If you gave me the choice (sight-unseen) between any old 1908 MS65 saint and one from the WF hoard, I'd take the WF coin every time both for provenance and quality. There
are far less 65's in the hoard than 66's. The WF hoard represents nearly the entire MS67 1908 no population. The stickering rate so far on 65-67 1908 WF saints does suggest that as
a group they were graded more liberally than other 1908 nm's. I was sort of surprised to see that. Either that or dealers don't bother submitting them as often as other 1908 NM's. It's
probably also true that a lot of the nicer WF saints were cracked out over the past 10 yrs when MS Saint standards slipped. >>
I have heard that too, that the coins came from elsewhere and were merely stored in a Wells Fargo facility for a relatively short period of time in order to acquire a marketing-friendly "provenance."
Oddly enough, at the same time that the "hoard" was being graded, unbeknownst to us, the firm that I was working for at the time happened to acquire a group of about 100 BU Saints. We sent them in to be graded just on spec, and were amazed at the wonderful grades that we received.
So, the "hoard" coins were not given special treatment, they were indeed grading according to the prevailing grading standards...of that week.
<< <i>Oddly enough, at the same time that the "hoard" was being graded, unbeknownst to us, the firm that I was working for at the time happened to acquire a group of about 100 BU Saints. We sent them in to be graded just on spec, and were amazed at the wonderful grades that we received.
So, the "hoard" coins were not given special treatment, they were indeed grading according to the prevailing grading standards...of that week. >>
I'm not sure that the charge was that the coins were given special treatment; rather, the claim is that they were optimistically graded which may or may not be representative of the standards of the time (I wasn't submitting during this time and my comments are based solely on the Wells Fargo pieces that I have seen compared to other non-Wells Fargo PCGS coins generally from multiple grading periods/holder generations).
Edited to add: Comparing the CAC populations between Wells Fargo and non-Wells Fargo coins seems hopeless to me. The sample sizes are too small to be statistically meaningful. I could extrapolate and conduct a variety of statistics on the data above which would most assuredly be statistically significant, but there would still be threats to validity. I would love to see the CAC populations after several years and compare the Wells Fargo stickering rate to Non-Wells Fargo stickering rate (after adjusting for the normal CAC rejection/acceptance rate). There still, however, would be the issue with the CAC populations given that many submitters have had Wells Fargo coins reholdered without the pedigree to avoid any stigma.
Permit me to resuscitate a 10-year old thread but these coins are popular and there's some useful information on this thread that need not be duplicated but added on.
I'm unaware of the Russian angle, but the Wells Fargo moniker I believe was always understood to be where the coins were STORED not where they were FOUND. The story from Ron Gillio (or associates close to him) was that it was a bank or government official or corrupt junta leader from South or Central America who had the hoard of 19,900 coins (which in recent years some hypothesize could have been larger with more Saints or other coins). Coins from that region tended to move around alot less than those in Europe, hence the higher overall quality.
I doubt they travelled all the way to Russia a century-plus ago and then back in the late-1990's. The bag markings would probably have been much much worse. Maybe Russia was a cover story (if someone sold the coins for a nice premium and told his superiors they were merely 1 ounce gold bullion, they wouldn't want their identity or the origin of the coins leaked).
One thing does confuse me: I've seen the 19,900 coins reference from Gillio, dealers, and veteran coin collectors. But the Wells Fargo moniker on the graded coins only sums up to about half of that, a bit over 9,000 the last I checked. I can't account for that discrepancy -- why aren't close to 19,900 coins graded by PCGS ??
Is it possible that half the coins were so heavily bagmarked/circulated/damaged that they were never submitted (to PCGS) and sold simply as bullion ? It wouldn't have paid even for a Wells Fargo pedigreed coin to have it graded if you knew the coins wouldn't merit at least a low-MS grade (I believe only 1 coin got an MS-63 grade). Gold averaged about $400 from 1996-1998 as I recall. But no statements from Gillio or others have alluded to nearly half the coins being unworthy of being submitted for grading....so where are the other 9,000 graded (?) coins ?
Ron Gillio works for HA and last time I attended Long Beach he was there at their tables. He can tell you all about it.
My understanding is that he won't discuss certain parts of the deal that clarify the seller and the origin. He may take that information with him to his grave -- or maybe it gets released afterwards.
If he won't discuss the seller then he should be applauded.
Really not a need to know.
He works for Heritage?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Regarding your question concerning the difference between the reported number of Wells Fargo coins vs. the number on the PCGS population report - I bet many of them were resubmitted to PCGS and (intentionally or otherwise) lost their “Wells Fargo” provenance. Additionally, a lot of them are likely in NGC holders. In fact, as best I remember, I was grading at NGC when the coins first surfaced and I/we graded a very large quantity of them. But please don’t ask me how many.😀
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Here's a nice one at Great Collections (not mine).
I thought I saw him at HA table. But news gets to me last. I'm old.🙄
He was at Stacks. My mistake. Feldini set me straight. 😇
7,779 by PCGS and 5,537 from NGC.
Even if you ascribe a low % to re-submittances...add in other smaller TPGs....no where near 19,900 coins. I read that the lowest grade was MS-63
Did you add up all of the MS 63 and higher 1908 No Motto Saints on the NGC and PCGS pop reports, with and without the “Wells Fargo” labels?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No, you think that some Wells Fargo 1908's may have slipped into the non-WF bucket ? I could see a few strays here or there, but a large quantity losing a valuable pedigree ?
Yes, as I wrote in an earlier post: "I bet many of them were resubmitted to PCGS and (intentionally or otherwise) lost their “Wells Fargo” provenance..
I don't happen to think the provenance is particularly valuable, as a number of hobbyists thought that in general, the grading was somewhat liberal.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Found an old article that mentioned that the MS-65's sold for about $1,200....the 66's for $3,000 and the 67's for $10,000. That was with gold trading $280-$380 from 1996-2001. The premiums were HUGE.
Ironically, buying the better coin didn't work out this time as more and more 67's hit the market and the premium collapsed even as gold went up 6-fold since. 65 owners have doubled their $$$.....66's are about even.
Interesting to see how it played out over many decades and with gold rising over that period of time.
That would seem to be an anomaly, maybe a result of the runup in Saint prices in 2012 following the huge rise in gold.
I've watched pricing on these closely in recent years....unless you find one misgraded that should be 1 grade lower...and another one that is borderline worthy of 1 grade higher....a 50% price difference is hard to visualize even at the MS-67 level (~ $6,000 including bp) unless you have both coins seriously misgraded. Even the CAC sticker on the higher one shouldn't matter that much.
That’s not an anomaly. There’s a sight-unseen bid of $13,000+ for CAC MS67’s - more than double the price of what many non-CAC examples have been bringing.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.