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2012-s Proof Silver Eagle 75th San Francisco Grades?

AkbeezAkbeez Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
Where is everyone on these? The forums are rather silent so far. I just got results back on my second set of submissions to PCGS and of 19 coins submitted/cherried, I got ZERO 70's. All 69s & 1 68. I heard comments about 20-30% 70's... Is this BS or do I just have bad karma?

All these were day one purchases, 1st Strikes.

2nd question(s): are any more 75th sets being shipped now? What was the last shipping date? Wondering if first strikes will truly be limited?
Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS

Comments

  • drei3reedrei3ree Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭
    I've been running ~30% 70s. The cutoff date for FS was 8/25.
  • HIGHLOWLEAVESHIGHLOWLEAVES Posts: 778 ✭✭✭
    Simply a thougth..... Earlier 2012 S PF coins were typically prescreened before being submitted by most of the large modern coin dealers, thus there was a higher % of PF 70's. Comments....
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  • Try getting a 70 in non-first strike, GOOD LUCKimage
    mari20len1
  • RadioContestKingRadioContestKing Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Simply a thougth..... Earlier 2012 S PF coins were typically prescreened before being submitted by most of the large modern coin dealers, thus there was a higher % of PF 70's. Comments.... >>

    August 25 was the cutoff date, and the dealers and the collectors BOTH had the option of prescreening these. Now its true the dealer probally submitted more giving him better odds at the 70's but just like the 25th anniversary sets when we were able to keep track of the pops between the two(Bulk submission vs Collectors) there was a BIG difference. Would love to hear from John or another dealer and what there results were. I feel for you Akbeez I think we have all been there one time or another and it does make you wonder.....................Enjoy image
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=UayFm2yCHV8
    I used to be famous now I just collect coins.


    Link to My Registry Set.

    https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469

    Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
  • After 2011 25th Anniversary ASE saga I decided not play this game with SF sets for exactly this reason.

    I fugured it's cheaper to buy just one PR70 and if I wanted PR69th I could buy them below costs+fees in the secondary market
  • AkbeezAkbeez Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah, I did poorly (10% 70s) with the 25th Anni's too, but did manage to get a full set.

    Sure wish I got in on those early presales by Mcm, st, etc. I have several single 75th's still sealed fs eligible. Was thinking about submitting, but may just sell them.

    It will be interesting to see what the pops are for fs -- it's possible the fs69's may be worth a premium?
    Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
  • ianrussellianrussell Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We were getting anywhere from 10% to 39% as 70s. Not what I would have expected going into this set.

    - Ian
    Ian Russell
    Owner/Founder GreatCollections
    GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
  • As of the end of this week, PCGS's % of PF 70 grade is 34% for both 2012 S PF/RP ASEs. Most are FS designation which FS submissions should slow down greatly in the next few weeks. Question... will the Coin/Currency labelled 2012S Pf's be shown as a separate item in the future PCGS Pops? Comments......
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  • RadioContestKingRadioContestKing Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As of the end of this week, PCGS's % of PF 70 grade is 34% for both 2012 S PF/RP ASEs. Most are FS designation which FS submissions should slow down greatly in the next few weeks. Question... will the Coin/Currency labelled 2012S Pf's be shown as a separate item in the future PCGS Pops? Comments...... >>

    Yes and I do not feel so good about sending my 1 set in blind, with the results showing not that many 70's in sets that were LOOKED at, Oh well 62 bucks including First strike and I doubt there will be many as the cutoff date is Sept 6th. But they should have there own POPs........Enjoy image
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=UayFm2yCHV8
    I used to be famous now I just collect coins.


    Link to My Registry Set.

    https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469

    Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
  • AkbeezAkbeez Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As of the end of this week, PCGS's % of PF 70 grade is 34% for both 2012 S PF/RP ASEs. Most are FS designation which FS submissions should slow down greatly in the next few weeks. Question... will the Coin/Currency labelled 2012S Pf's be shown as a separate item in the future PCGS Pops? Comments...... >>




    Ugg. 34% -- oh well. The FS 69's are a bargain now @ $199 from the big dealers. Grading alone was $120/set w/shipping, ~$270 cost for the little guy. I wonder if they will dry up/appreciate soon to the break-even point.

    Agreed -- the CC sets should have their own pops, don't special set labels usually?
    Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
  • Anyone else have 2012S PF grades to tell us about? Thanks.
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  • goldbuffalogoldbuffalo Posts: 613 ✭✭✭
    Mine got put in the system on the 14th.

    At the time, the Modern turn around time was listed as 8 days.

    Tuesday will the the 14th business day !!!

    I guess double what PCGS says the turn around time is.

    I probably got bumped for the big dealers, PCGS doesn't want to deal with us little people.


  • drei3reedrei3ree Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭
    My first 75th Set PCGS orders show "received" on 8/13--with 7-day turnaround...still waiting... I had a 30 set order that I cherry picked and sent the best 10 sets to PCGS and the remainder ATS. I received my ATS sets last weekend and had 16-70's, 22-69's & 2-68's. When I get the PCGS grades, I let everyone know what they thought of my cherry-pickin skills.
  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I guess double what PCGS says the turn around time is.

    I probably got bumped for the big dealers, PCGS doesn't want to deal with us little people. >>



    I seriously doubt any "big dealers" are submitting through regular services, they do bulk and it's apparently a completely different department and group of graders so it should have no effect on the "little people"
  • drei3reedrei3ree Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>My first 75th Set PCGS orders show "received" on 8/13--with 7-day turnaround...still waiting... I had a 30 set order that I cherry picked and sent the best 10 sets to PCGS and the remainder ATS. I received my ATS sets last weekend and had 16-70's, 22-69's & 2-68's. When I get the PCGS grades, I let everyone know what they thought of my cherry-pickin skills. >>



    UPDATE: I got grades for my first 5 sets--9-69's and 1-68. And these were cherry picked from the original 30 sets! Either I'm getting pretty bad at grading or PCGS is getting much tougher.
  • goldbuffalogoldbuffalo Posts: 613 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>My first 75th Set PCGS orders show "received" on 8/13--with 7-day turnaround...still waiting... I had a 30 set order that I cherry picked and sent the best 10 sets to PCGS and the remainder ATS. I received my ATS sets last weekend and had 16-70's, 22-69's & 2-68's. When I get the PCGS grades, I let everyone know what they thought of my cherry-pickin skills. >>



    UPDATE: I got grades for my first 5 sets--9-69's and 1-68. And these were cherry picked from the original 30 sets! Either I'm getting pretty bad at grading or PCGS is getting much tougher. >>




    PCGS is not getting tougher, your just not a big enough dealer to warrant getting any 70's. PCGS knows they can only give out so many, so they save them for the big dealers.

  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    I knew that big dealers got discount pricing, I was not aware they had

    << <i>a completely different department and group of graders >>

    . I find that surprising, and wonder how much truth is in that rumor.

    Financially speaking, from a profitability standpoint, I don't think it would make sense for PCGS to employ a staff of graders who only grade big-dealer submissions. And regarding the statement that they "save 70s for big dealers because they can only approve a certain number each year" seems even more preposterous. That type of behavior would undermine the credibility of the entire grading process. I doubt PCGS or any other TPG would take such a risk.

    What's more likely is that because big dealers submit such high volume, statistically, they will get more 70s than clients who submit less. For example, if you submit 100 coins you might receive one 70. If you submitted 10,000 coins, you might've received a hundred 70s.
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  • RadioContestKingRadioContestKing Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I knew that big dealers got discount pricing, I was not aware they had

    << <i>a completely different department and group of graders >>

    . I find that surprising, and wonder how much truth is in that rumor.

    Financially speaking, from a profitability standpoint, I don't think it would make sense for PCGS to employ a staff of graders who only grade big-dealer submissions. And regarding the statement that they "save 70s for big dealers because they can only approve a certain number each year" seems even more preposterous. That type of behavior would undermine the credibility of the entire grading process. I doubt PCGS or any other TPG would take such a risk.

    What's more likely is that because big dealers submit such high volume, statistically, they will get more 70s than clients who submit less. For example, if you submit 100 coins you might receive one 70. If you submitted 10,000 coins, you might've received a hundred 70s. >>

    Sorry to tell you its NOT a rumor. It has been known about the two seperate grading rooms for awhile now, plus the Pennylady on one of her visits took Pictures. I will agree that if the dealer submits 100 sets compared to the 10 you sent in, they will have better odds at getting a 70. They also get to put down a MINIMUM GRADE, so they send in a 100 sets with a 69 as there minimum, everything under the 69 gets returned no holder,(NO Charge) which also means it doesn't show on the pops like the 68 you or I got. Plus than the dealers can take the rejects(below 69) and just sell those in the Original Goverment holders and the buyers don't have a clue those coins were already graded. This is why I and others who felt the sting on the 25th sets decided to sit this one out. Good luck all...........Enjoy image Side note When the 2010 5 ounce coins were released WE PROVED that some AP dealers had sent in 100's of those and kept the best for themselves, the Mint should NOT allow these AP"S to Grade coins at all.How fair is it when they pay less than you and I and there able to keep the best ones to sell and again dump the rejects on the unknowing public............BOX A image
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=UayFm2yCHV8
    I used to be famous now I just collect coins.


    Link to My Registry Set.

    https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469

    Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
  • BigABigA Posts: 2,715 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>They also get to put down a MINIMUM GRADE, so they send in a 100 sets with a 69 as there minimum, everything under the 69 gets returned no holder,(NO Charge) which also means it doesn't show on the pops like the 68 you or I got. Plus than the dealers can take the rejects(below 69) and just sell those in the Original Goverment >>



    I agree totally but staying with that thought wouldn't that increase the 70 POP %'s since a large quantity of non-70's never made it in....and ALL of the 70's (no matter how few) did make it into the numbers.

    I think it might be a valid business decision (at least with the ASE's) to limit the % of 70's because of the grade guarantee and buy back potential. It doesn't help the bottom line to have that hanging over your head forever.....
  • goldbuffalogoldbuffalo Posts: 613 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I knew that big dealers got discount pricing, I was not aware they had

    << <i>a completely different department and group of graders >>

    . I find that surprising, and wonder how much truth is in that rumor.

    Financially speaking, from a profitability standpoint, I don't think it would make sense for PCGS to employ a staff of graders who only grade big-dealer submissions. And regarding the statement that they "save 70s for big dealers because they can only approve a certain number each year" seems even more preposterous. That type of behavior would undermine the credibility of the entire grading process. I doubt PCGS or any other TPG would take such a risk.

    What's more likely is that because big dealers submit such high volume, statistically, they will get more 70s than clients who submit less. For example, if you submit 100 coins you might receive one 70. If you submitted 10,000 coins, you might've received a hundred 70s. >>

    Sorry to tell you its NOT a rumor. It has been known about the two seperate grading rooms for awhile now, plus the Pennylady on one of her visits took Pictures. I will agree that if the dealer submits 100 sets compared to the 10 you sent in, they will have better odds at getting a 70. They also get to put down a MINIMUM GRADE, so they send in a 100 sets with a 69 as there minimum, everything under the 69 gets returned no holder,(NO Charge) which also means it doesn't show on the pops like the 68 you or I got. Plus than the dealers can take the rejects(below 69) and just sell those in the Original Goverment holders and the buyers don't have a clue those coins were already graded. This is why I and others who felt the sting on the 25th sets decided to sit this one out. Good luck all...........Enjoy image Side note When the 2010 5 ounce coins were released WE PROVED that some AP dealers had sent in 100's of those and kept the best for themselves, the Mint should NOT allow these AP"S to Grade coins at all.How fair is it when they pay less than you and I and there able to keep the best ones to sell and again dump the rejects on the unknowing public............BOX A image >>




    Don't forget PCGS waived the 30 day First Strike Rule on the 5 oz coins to allow all the big dealers to be able to get First Strike labels.

    The game is totally rigged, anyone who thinks it is not is very naive.



  • AkbeezAkbeez Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Am I understanding the bulk submissions are graded by a different group of graders than non-bulk? Is this really true?
    Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
  • goldbuffalogoldbuffalo Posts: 613 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Am I understanding the bulk submissions are graded by a different group of graders than non-bulk? Is this really true? >>



    based on what others said, it appears so.


    Not to get off track, but another issue i have with the grading process, is the grader knows how big an order is. So if you have 1, 10, 100 or 1000 coins, the grader knows that. And no offense to the graders, but it would just be human nature to give a few 70's to someone who spent so much money to have 100 coins graded.

    I think each coin should come across the graders table as a single coin and graded as a single coin, not as 1 of 100 coins.


  • pmacpmac Posts: 3,189 ✭✭✭
    Are there many of us who purchased one set and did not get their set graded? I have all three sets (2005,2011,&2012) as the mint sent to them to me. In a few years, they still will look beautiful in the OGP they came in.
    Paul
  • drfishdrfish Posts: 931 ✭✭✭✭
    I got 6 sets from the mint and also bought 8 sets from big dealers as pr70 presales . After reading how tough the regular grading was , I cherry picked one set from my 6 which was to my my eye nicer than most of the bulk graded 70's .Results just back from PCGS and both coins got 69s- ridiculously tough.
  • AkbeezAkbeez Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow, really? Your pf70s (bulk) are worse than your pf69 (little guy)? Hmmmm

    I'd sure like to hear more about how these Bulk vs LIttle Guy categories are managed by our forum host.
    Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
  • drfishdrfish Posts: 931 ✭✭✭✭
    Absolutely - and also the case with the 25th sets (sent 5 - purchased 5) After viewing around 100 coins that were either bulk or small time submissions-to my eye- definitely tougher grading standards for the collectors club. This also seems to be borne out by a high percentage of 70's in the pops early (bulk) which then trend downwards as the collectors coins get graded ( as well as viewing the shared orders).
  • JohnMabenJohnMaben Posts: 957 ✭✭✭
    OK, I'll chime in. Just submitted 51 fresh sets via bulk out of 102 coins got 6 70's. So much for the big dealer/bulk theory. IMO, there is no conspiracy to grade some coins better than others.

    John

    John Maben
    Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
    ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
    800-381-2646

  • RadioContestKingRadioContestKing Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image Well thanks John for your results.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=UayFm2yCHV8
    I used to be famous now I just collect coins.


    Link to My Registry Set.

    https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469

    Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
  • drfishdrfish Posts: 931 ✭✭✭✭
    John what have your overall numbers been? Obviously your last submission was an outlier or it would make no business sense for MCM to submit the 75th sets. Not a conspiracy theory, an observation based on my experience(that admittedly maybe inaccurate due to relatively low numbers.) i have seen a few bulk graded 70s that I wouldn't have been surprised to see in a 68 holder- no dogs from the collectors side. Perhaps the collectors are unlucky but the numbers certainly seem to favor the bulk route.
  • 7over87over8 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭
    Lately, very low % of 70's have been coming out of PCGS on these ASE's sets.

    Quite frankly, I sensed a big change with the 2011 25th Anniversary sets. The 70 sets in FS from dealers were unbelievably plentiful, while collectors were complaining about the low % of 70's on thier submissions. I dont buy the "bulk" or "prescreening" argument, many collectors prescreen and send multiple boxes in for grading as well.

    The grading across the street is not that bad, and at least for the 25th anniversary sets, you were much better off in "increased value" sending your 25th anniversary sets to them......all costs considered.

    However, I have noticed this time around...the 75th SF set...the grade thru rate of 70's is bad at both services, Im thinking the overall quality control at the SF mint is suffering.

    I think the community is in dire need of a 69+ grade. The market reaction to a 69 for a modern is that it is garbage, run of the mill, expected. All coins cant make it to a "70". We need something else...something to distinguish that real PQ 69.......and I dont mean little stickers either.
  • Is it possible the second half of shipments may have better quality if mint is getting lots of returns and and complaints?
    Better quality means less returns and more mint profit?
    I ask because I have 10 sets ordered on last day and debating should I cancel or not with the low quality heard here so far.
    Thanks
  • drei3reedrei3ree Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭
    You'll probably do better picking up sets on the open market, and the FS/ER sets will bring a premium to the non-. jmo
  • dmarksdmarks Posts: 450 ✭✭
    I think people will be suprised when they see the percent 70s from ATS(assuming they ever release that number). I have had two sizeable submissions average under 40% recently. Perhaps my ups driver hates me, or maybe the graders are now wearing those hd glasses I see advertised on late night tvimage
  • JohnMabenJohnMaben Posts: 957 ✭✭✭


    << <i>John what have your overall numbers been? Obviously your last submission was an outlier or it would make no business sense for MCM to submit the 75th sets. Not a conspiracy theory, an observation based on my experience(that admittedly maybe inaccurate due to relatively low numbers.) i have seen a few bulk graded 70s that I wouldn't have been surprised to see in a 68 holder- no dogs from the collectors side. Perhaps the collectors are unlucky but the numbers certainly seem to favor the bulk route. >>



    I think the best was 30% or so..... I guess the point is it varies for all of us. IF, and that's a big IF, there is any difference in grading I think the different graders theory makes more sense than any other theory I've seen put forth.

    Final note, and what I think is a very valuable tip for most on these boards, if you can afford the fees don't bother screening the coins yourself no matter how good you think your eye is. Send them all in and leave it to the pro's. I know some will say "but what if it's an OBVIOUS 68 or 69....." OK, don't send it. But if you have ANY doubt at all, send it. In my case, I don't even bother to do that the majority of the time because we simply don't have the time.

    Have a great weekend,
    John

    John Maben
    Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
    ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
    800-381-2646

  • It will be interesting to see the PCGS Pops on these two coins in a few hours !!
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  • AkbeezAkbeez Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's happening in a few hours?

    Thanks John M for your insights, always good to hear from you. I did exactly as you suggested.
    Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
  • Here is this week's PCGS POPs 70's numbers for the 2012 S Two-Coin 75th Anniv. Set PF coins: PF "S" 3462 out of 10,342 (33%); RP "S" 3585 out of 10,474 (34%). The PF S 70s ratio went down 1%. Interseting ....... I really think that these 70's ratios will not change much in the future. If that pans out to be the case, might thePF/RP 70 graded coins end up to be much more valuable ...."WINNERS" ??
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  • drei3reedrei3ree Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭✭
    The Mint is ready to ship the last sets this week, even though 1/3 were scheduled for late October...guess there were lots of cancellations...or they were able to acquire enough coins and boxes to meet initial demand. I'd really like to see some "variety" in this second batch of coins. image
  • Mine were originally set to be sent late October. They have now been moved to ship today. I purchased this set on the last day I was able to
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