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I passed on this 1914 quarter eagle, are my counterfeit suspicions justified?
Pokermandude
Posts: 2,710 ✭✭✭
I'm not well versed in this series, I do own one in a low MS grade though.
Things that bother me about this piece, as compared to a known counterfeit (quite a poor one) I found on another coin forum:
- the color (possibly only cleaned)
- the circular line around the outside near the rim. Could be that it was a jewellery piece? Looks like the line in that fake piece on the CT thread.
- The S alignment next to the R in DOLLARS seems off, again, very much like the one pictured in that thread.
Things that bother me about this piece, as compared to a known counterfeit (quite a poor one) I found on another coin forum:
- the color (possibly only cleaned)
- the circular line around the outside near the rim. Could be that it was a jewellery piece? Looks like the line in that fake piece on the CT thread.
- The S alignment next to the R in DOLLARS seems off, again, very much like the one pictured in that thread.
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bob
<< <i>this coin is very, very suspect. Real ones do not have rims. You are correct...back off.
bob
Bob, this coin doesn't have rims. These are marks on the dies and are quite common on indian quarter eagles.
Coin looks fine to me.
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<< <i>Gold is a soft metal and those 'rims' may be caused by a former bezel/jewelry setting......No way to tell from the blurry pics 100% >>
Take a look at a few on HA, almost all of them exhibit that ring around the coin. Our host and NGC have no problem certifying these as problem free, so I don't believe they were (at least all) were caused by bezels.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>Gold is a soft metal and those 'rims' may be caused by a former bezel/jewelry setting......No way to tell from the blurry pics 100% >>
No, the "rings" in question are due to die erosion (typical late die state for sunken-relief Indian Head gold).
<< <i>
<< <i>Gold is a soft metal and those 'rims' may be caused by a former bezel/jewelry setting......No way to tell from the blurry pics 100% >>
No, the "rings" in question are due to die erosion (typical late die state for sunken-relief Indian Head gold). >>
Thanks for the explanation. I've always wondered about those rings
I only have a VF35 to look at in hand, and I don't see the rings. Likely worn-off before I received the coin.
Amat Colligendo Focum
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<< <i>Hard to tell based off those pictures, but I can say that the circular mark inside is very common on real coins. I would be more worried if the coin DIDN'T have that mark. There are a few places to look when checking for legitimacy, but they aren't see-able due to the blurry photos. >>
That circular mark inside the edge is die wear and indicates a late die state. That coin can't be authenticated from that pic but this series has been very heavily counterfeited and should only be bought in a top tier slab or from a trusted dealer unless you are an expert authenticator. That coin may very well be real but why take the chance?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Genuine. >>
You can authenticate a gold coin with confidence from a blurry pic?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
<< <i>That coin can't be authenticated from that pic but this series has been very heavily counterfeited and should only be bought in a top tier slab or from a trusted dealer unless you are an expert authenticator. That coin may very well be real but why take the chance? >>
This. Even if it is real (and my non-expert gut feeling thinks it is), it's not worth taking the chance unless you had a rock-solid return policy you could trust. Even then there's a hassle factor to consider.
<< <i>
<< <i>Genuine. >>
You can authenticate a gold coin with confidence from a blurry pic? >>
That one I can.
<< <i>The good counterfeits of these don't have issues like misspellings, words in the wrong place, or incorrectly shaped lettering. It's stuff like tool marks to smooth out a die flaw or a mushy transfer of a design detail somewhere that won't show up in your photo. The die wear ring indicates that that many coins were produced -- possibly far more than were ever produced with counterfeit dies of this date -- and this could be what leads TD to say it's good. >>
Counterfeit dies are usually made from a real coin and it the real coin has a flaw such as a bag mark or a die wear ring, those flaws will be transferred to the counterfeit copy die and then to the counterfeit coin produced from that die.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>Gold is a soft metal and those 'rims' may be caused by a former bezel/jewelry setting......No way to tell from the blurry pics 100% >>
No, the "rings" in question are due to die erosion (typical late die state for sunken-relief Indian Head gold). >>
It is especially common on the D-mint coins, like this one.
I have a theory that when they changed to the new style coinage nobody bothered to tell the Denver Mint that they no longer needed to upset the rims of the planchets, and when the flat dies (not basined like the earlier dies) hit the planchets, those upset rims contacted the dies just inside the borders and caused that accelerated die erosion. Can't prove it, of course.
<< <i>Counterfeit dies are usually made from a real coin and it the real coin has a flaw such as a bag mark or a die wear ring, those flaws will be transferred to the counterfeit copy die and then to the counterfeit coin produced from that die. >>
But a careful counterfeiter would be sure to start with a coin that had really good detail, thus giving a high quality copy die that would last for a while and not require much touch-up. The counterfeit $2.50 Indians are typically good enough to say that a careful counterfeiter that knew to start with a sharp original was involved.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
This was from an unknown, private seller who had emailed me those pictures. I know this series is heavily counterfeited and some things stuck out to me as red flags so I passed. I told him I wasn't willing to make an offer as I am not sure it is genuine. I recommended they take it to a coin shop to see what they think. I was told "you don't know what your [sic] talking about". While that may be true (on this particular series), I'd rather take the prudent path and pass on pieces like this than risk getting burnt.