Options
Poll: real or fake?
lordmarcovan
Posts: 43,218 ✭✭✭✭✭
OK, there has been much discussion of this coin lately, mostly here.
I have had it on eBay and it is doing well. But that doesn't mean anything. People on eBay will bid up anything, seemingly without a care.
I do not post a link to my live auction for spam purposes, but rather because a seldom-spoken member named "Crazy8s" recently responded to my original thread about it and called its authenticity into question. If it IS fake, I definitely want to know more about that before I sell it to someone!
It doesn't look right, but that's because it is polished. If you know of any OTHER reasons why it might look fake, I would like to hear them.
I have stated that it is "to the best of my knowledge" a genuine coin, albeit a heavily polished one, but "the best of my knowledge" doesn't go terribly far. I could spot the typical tourist fake straightaway, but in this era of more and more frightening Chinese counterfeits, who knows anymore?
I have very little invested in it so I don't stand to lose much money for purchasing a fake, if it IS a fake, but having to deal with an eBay return and/or PayPal refund is something I would like to avoid.
I am offering a 14 day return privilege on it so I guess I will need to hold somebody's money at least that long before spending it, but I would hate to have somebody find out the coin they bought from me is fake, even after the stated return period. I don't want anybody hating me over something like that.
On the other hand, I'm not prepared to pull down a successful auction and label the coin a fake simply because one person voiced a suspicion of it without any definitive explanation.
The coin weighs 29.34 g on my pocket digital scale. My less accurate postal scale says 26 g. I'm not sure how much I trust either one. Both were relatively inexpensive. What are the tolerances? I see no casting seams or anything- the edge looks OK to me. I can provide other scans of selected areas upon request, or just larger overall scans. Because the images were produced on a flatbed scanner, which doesn't do shiny coins so well, it actually looks a bit duller in the pictures. In hand, it is quite shiny. Too shiny, in fact. But that could just be polishing, as mentioned.
If it's a fake, it's a reasonably deceptive one and not some typical tourist knockoff.
I beg you to not go arbitrarily labeling it good or bad if you don't know for sure. That is why I have put two less definite options on the poll. I myself voted "I'm not 100% sure, but it looks okay to me., because that's where I stand until persuaded otherwise. To me it looks like a real enough coin that got heavily polished. But as mentioned, I'm not 100% sure and I'll be the first to admit that my experience is limited. I have never owned a Pillar dollar before. All of the 8-reales I've had were of the portrait type. I have owned some Pillar type coins before, but they've all been the smaller denominations, in lower grade.
I have had it on eBay and it is doing well. But that doesn't mean anything. People on eBay will bid up anything, seemingly without a care.
I do not post a link to my live auction for spam purposes, but rather because a seldom-spoken member named "Crazy8s" recently responded to my original thread about it and called its authenticity into question. If it IS fake, I definitely want to know more about that before I sell it to someone!
It doesn't look right, but that's because it is polished. If you know of any OTHER reasons why it might look fake, I would like to hear them.
I have stated that it is "to the best of my knowledge" a genuine coin, albeit a heavily polished one, but "the best of my knowledge" doesn't go terribly far. I could spot the typical tourist fake straightaway, but in this era of more and more frightening Chinese counterfeits, who knows anymore?
I have very little invested in it so I don't stand to lose much money for purchasing a fake, if it IS a fake, but having to deal with an eBay return and/or PayPal refund is something I would like to avoid.
I am offering a 14 day return privilege on it so I guess I will need to hold somebody's money at least that long before spending it, but I would hate to have somebody find out the coin they bought from me is fake, even after the stated return period. I don't want anybody hating me over something like that.
On the other hand, I'm not prepared to pull down a successful auction and label the coin a fake simply because one person voiced a suspicion of it without any definitive explanation.
The coin weighs 29.34 g on my pocket digital scale. My less accurate postal scale says 26 g. I'm not sure how much I trust either one. Both were relatively inexpensive. What are the tolerances? I see no casting seams or anything- the edge looks OK to me. I can provide other scans of selected areas upon request, or just larger overall scans. Because the images were produced on a flatbed scanner, which doesn't do shiny coins so well, it actually looks a bit duller in the pictures. In hand, it is quite shiny. Too shiny, in fact. But that could just be polishing, as mentioned.
If it's a fake, it's a reasonably deceptive one and not some typical tourist knockoff.
I beg you to not go arbitrarily labeling it good or bad if you don't know for sure. That is why I have put two less definite options on the poll. I myself voted "I'm not 100% sure, but it looks okay to me., because that's where I stand until persuaded otherwise. To me it looks like a real enough coin that got heavily polished. But as mentioned, I'm not 100% sure and I'll be the first to admit that my experience is limited. I have never owned a Pillar dollar before. All of the 8-reales I've had were of the portrait type. I have owned some Pillar type coins before, but they've all been the smaller denominations, in lower grade.
0
Comments
I voted I'm not 100% sure , but looks OK to me.
I'm more concerned about the weak strike in some places , then the polishing job.
I have one for sale right now on eBay,
and I get stupid questions , someone even claims the COA is no good.
but I also get high offers and end the listing immediatly.
pillar dollar 1737
FOR SALE Items
8 Reales Madness Collection
The reason pillars were so popular as a trade dollar was because of the quality control.
Concerning weights: Gilboy states the 8 reales coin had a legal weight of 27.0642 grammes +/- 0.1996.
This is my only concern.
<< <i>I was going to vote real until you told me the weight.
The reason pillars were so popular as a trade dollar was because of the quality control.
Concerning weights: Gilboy states the 8 reales coin had a legal weight of 27.0642 grammes +/- 0.1996.
This is my only concern. >>
I agree, that coin should weigh very close to 26.8 g. Rob, you need a better scale.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>I think it looks okay. Does the tulip edge look well done? Why did it look questionable to Crazy8s? >>
There is the $165.00 question.
I'll try to find another scale to weigh it on, then, and add pictures of the edge as soon as I can. The "tulip" edge looks fine to me. I was fumbling for the correct term to call it.
8 Reales Madness Collection
While I might not link up this discussion to my auction, I'll perhaps extend the return period a little bit if the buyer wishes to send it off for slabbing or whatever.
Edit: I decided to link all this up anyway, AND offer to extend the return period if somebody wants to send the coin off for slabbing or whatever.
Sorry I haven't found another scale to weigh it on yet. We can pretty much disregard the 26g I got off my postal scale. It is not accurate to fractions of a gram and "not legal for trade". The 29.34 g on my Neva pocket digital scale, which is supposedly accurate to 1/100 of a gram, is a bit more of a concern, since it would seem to be overweight. I wouldn't take that as definitive proof of falsity, though, because as I've said before, I don't know how much I trust that scale. It was relatively cheap, as I recall. It has served my purposes for my ancient coin collection but I don't know how accurate it is.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Does eBay send notice to bidders in an auction if the item description has been added to?
Now that JamesM has pointed out those flat areas, that is all I can stare at. It is present on both sides of the coin in the same spot/shape. Not sure what to make of it, but it does raise some suspicions, IMO.
Just start weighing stuff.
Morgan Dollar - 26.73 Grams
2012 Quarter - 5.67 Grams
Kennedy Half Dollar - 12.50 Grams
2012 Nickle - 5.00 Grams
2012 Dime - 2.26 Grams
<< <i>2012 Dime - 2.26 Grams >>
A 2011 dime from my pocket just weighed in at 2.42 g.
1) You should definitely hold onto the eBay winner's money in case of return. I sold a Chinese pattern, to a Chinaman! and he returned it a month later claiming counterfeit. I gladly refunded him but also was glad I had the money to do so.
2) If the coin is discovered to be fake, my offer to buy at $30 still stands even though I already own an 8 Reales fake
3) I will locate my fake and if it looks eerily similar to yours, believe me, I'll upload photos ASAP
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
https://www.civitasgalleries.com
New coins listed monthly!
Josh Moran
CIVITAS Galleries, Ltd.
First the usual disclaimers, I am not a dealer, nor do I profess to be the "end all authority" on these coins. I am just a collector and have collected Spanish Colonial 8 Reales for over 35 years and in that time period I have seen and handled over 1000 pillar dollars and have over 100 in my personal collection. In that time I have developed what can only be described as a "gut reaction' to certain pillars that have what I can only describe as a 'Squatty" look. The proportion of the overall design is wrong in my eyes, not any individual feature but the overall look. The pillars are too thick in proportion to the globes and crown. I have seen this look on many coins, I have bought several and determined them to be fakes and returned them to the sellers within the return period. All of the Mo pillars from the mid to late 1760's are beautiful coins, sharply struck and made from "king Punches" so while the actual positioning of the letters and such may vary, they should all retain the same proportion. In my humble opinion, your coin does not have that same look. I haven't yet mastered the art of posting photos on this site so I will email directly to the original poster some scans of pillars I own that I believe to be real and let him "see" if he "sees" the same thing I do. It could be the photograph he posted, it could be that I am getting older and my eyesite is not what it used to be. The counterfeit pillars coming out of China right now scare me, they are so well done and they are causing havoc in the market. Because of that, it is hard to determine if the coin is real from a photo, we need to rely on you the owner to check certain features.
Check the coin carefully, weight should be dead on for that coin, virtually no wear in the sense of lost metal. Check the tulip design on the edge, the tulips should be consistent in shape and size, the tulips should all face the same direction and you may or may not be able to see the joint where the two bar dies overlap. Mexico City from 1762-1768 had extremely consistent plancet size at 38.5mm, measure the coin. If any of these features is out of whack, it adds to the red flag I see when viewing the coin, if they all look good, and you do not see the "proportion issue" as I do then your coin is probably real.
The coin just sold this afternoon, for $301.00, to a bidder in Hong Kong. He has paid me.
He bid after I added the caveat to my item description, and linked up this thread. Should I email him and confirm that he has read all of this thread, or just keep my mouth shut and cross my fingers until after the return period is up?
I feel like I have done enough due diligence on the ethical front, as a seller, but if anyone disagrees, I am open for suggestions.
But I will. Thanks again.
Guess I'll cross my fingers, take a deep breath, and ship this thing off to the Kowloon Central Post Office, then.
It being an international transaction, I'm all the more nervous. But I've done business with bidders and sellers in Hong Kong before.
PS- looking at this buyer's feedback and recent transactions, it would seem we're dealing with a serious numismatist, here. He's bought other 8-reales pieces, and several ancients. (Ever try and read someone's personality by his eBay purchases? I think I like this guy.) There's no track record as a seller, so apparently we have a hardcore collector here, or a seller using a different account for buying, since there is a pretty high volume of purchases. I find myself slightly reassured.
Added him some freebie gifts- a few early Chinese cash coins and some fossil shark teeth, since I have literally pounds of those lying around.
I am thrilled at the price this $15 purchase of mine fetched, but I'm postponing the party until the buyer has gotten the coin and left positive feedback.
Positive feedback received! *whew*
<< <i>Coin apparently made it safely to Hong Kong.
Positive feedback received! *whew*
Hong Kong? Probably will be used to make dies from to produce fakes. Check ebay for a flood of these in about 2 months
<< <i>
<< <i>Coin apparently made it safely to Hong Kong.
Positive feedback received! *whew*
Hong Kong? Probably will be used to make dies from to produce fakes. Check ebay for a flood of these in about 2 months
Oh, believe me, the irony of that situation was not lost on me.
Judging from past purchases, though, this buyer seems to be a serious numismatist.