Aug 2012 Hong Kong Report

MrOrganic

ong Kong report


Lots of asians live here

Stacks Auction for Older china as bustling & prices stable, room packed.

but.....due to weather many heavy hitters couldnt make to china till late!

So the modern auction was weak & room 15-20 people...couple lots went strong, obvious low mintage pcs in high grade!

Champion auction had a gorgeous new room & set up & was well attended.

Now what was interesting was there Modern section even tho lighter than

in the past had a packed room with ALL the who's who & but Much

stronger money than the stacks auction on 60-70% of the items!!

Interestingly in both auctions the high ticket items($50k -$200K) still

are dropping

Report ltr on the ma tok auction, coin & watch show

Keep us in mind for any asiancentric material- war medals, coins, bw postcards, books.

Raul Seymour
Emerging Market Group VB6
310 980 8065

TwoKopeiki

Thank you for the report.



<< <i>Lots of asians live here >>



I would think so...

I'm also surprised at how strong the modern stuff is. Makes me think the prices are driven primarily by investors and not collectors.

jt88

I think lots of coins did not sell in this auction. I also believe SB messed up with many of lots that's why up to now they still can't add BP to the auction result because they are still trying to figure out the finnal result. I won 8 lots but two of them showed red on SB site. One SB changed the price next day so I would not be the winner. The other lot is still showed red and my max bid is higher than the finnal bid. I called SB and they told me to call back next week because they are still working on the finnal result. What a mess. I hope some of you got some good buys.

jt88

I don't see how people think the price is stable. Many coin price are drop like a rock. Only few rare coin price looks OK if those were really sold which I don't believe they were sold. The pumper just pump up the price. If you bid on the coin they will try to move up the price so you will not get the coin.

pruebas

<< <i>I don't see how people think the price is stable. Many coin price are drop like a rock. Only few rare coin price looks OK if those were really sold which I don't believe they were sold. The pumper just pump up the price. If you bid on the coin they will try to move up the price so you will not get the coin. >>

jt, are you trying to say that there is shilling going on? Who is doing the pumping?

Ponterio has never had a transparent reserve, unlike the US side of their business (Stacks-Bowers) or Heritage.

So for classic Chinese coinage rarities in MS grades, are the prices declining?

The modern stuff has been a bubble due to excess liquidity. I don't think that tells anything about the Chinese numismatic market.

jt88

I don't know who do the pumping but if you check the April 2012 auction you will find lots of the sold coins showed up on this auction. I bet lots coins in this auction will show up on next acution because they never sold.

jt88

I been buying on SB auctions for years so I can kind of sense which coin they try to pump it up when I bid on it. I usually just let it go and do't take the bait.

jt88

Do you really think this coin sold? I am not sure it was sold.

edited to removed the link.

pruebas

From my experience, Ponterio is good about saying when a lot did not meet reserve once the bidding is over. They are now a public company and I highly doubt there is any funny business going on by the house.

Could be that the consignor's "conspirators" shilled the lot so it appeared to have a high value when he actually bought it back himself. Unfortunately he had to pay the buyer's commission, but if he can sell it to someone at close to the pumped price, he makes out.

So in the case you highlighted, that medal is now "worth" $30k, especially if there are so few of them publicly sold to set another price.

Not much you can do about things like that happening.

jt88

I agree that SB and HA are best acution house in US or in the world but even them are still pumping up the price in order to sell the coins. So as buyer we should just put in the price that you want to pay not let them to get you for high price.

pruebas

<<I agree that SB and HA are best acution house in US or in the world but even them are still pumping up the price in order to sell the coins.>>

I never said that SB and HA are the best auction houses. They are simply transparent with their reserves whereas others are not.

But I suspect the reserve had nothing to do with the price of this piece.


<<So as buyer we should just put in the price that you want to pay not let them to get you for high price.>>

Of course! That is nothing new!

If in fact this lot was shilled, you were not meant to win it at auction. The buyer (who may also be the consignor) will simply sell it fixed price using the auction price as justification for his selling price. After all, it "sold" at public auction.

And if you happened to get caught up in auction fever and bought it at auction, you just made life easier for the consignor. So it's a win-win situation.

DeiGratia

<< <i>

If in fact this lot was shilled, you were not meant to win it at auction. The buyer (who may also be the consignor) will simply sell it fixed price using the auction price as justification for his selling price. After all, it "sold" at public auction.

And if you happened to get caught up in auction fever and bought it at auction, you just made life easier for the consignor. So it's a win-win situation. >>




But you lose a percentage to consign the coin to the auction house AND you pay Juice as the buyer, so is it really a win win after you pay your dues to the auction house?

pruebas

Let's say I have a coin I paid $200 for. And it is "worth" maybe $500, but is rare enough that none ever trade publicly.

I put it in auction where one pays 20% as a buyer and 10% as a seller (not realistic, but worst case).

My secret associates bid back and forth until one of them wins the lot at $25,000 hammer.
The buyer associate pays $25,000 + $5,000 (20%) to the house. As consignor, I get $25,000 - $2,500 (10%) from the house.
So this little exercise costs me $7,500 and the coin is now "worth" $30,000.

Now I sell the coin at my table at the show for "only" $31,000, just a small profit over what I paid for it at public auction (less than a bidding increment!).

My profit is $31,000 - $7,500 - $200 = $23,300.

The key here is than the population is thin enough not to have an established price. And to have buyers hungry enough (and wealthy enough) to pay the freight. Could this have happened with the medal that jt88 was referring to?

DeiGratia

Thank you for educating me, I never considered such a scenario.

I can see it happening if the coin is rare enough but for coins that I deal with in the range of $400-500, it wouldn't be profitable.

If I spent $25000 on a coin, I think my wife would make me sell a Kidney to pay for it.

You learn something new everyday and I'm glad it didn't cost me anything to learn this lesson.