<< <i>It sure looks like a 1964 SMS to me. I bought and sold the 1964 SMS SP67 dime depicted on CoinFacts, and have sold/seen about a dozen other coins of all denominations. I think only one die pair was used for the cents, nickels, and halves, but I'm not yet entirely sure about the dimes and quarters; there may have been more than one die pair used for those (and there are more of them around). This coin has the same sharp strike, heavy die polishing lines, clubby 6 and 9, and many other die markers that I noted on that SP67 dime. Notice the heavy die pollshing line running from bottom r. of I(BERTY) to the left lower bands. Exactly the same.
These are the notes I took on that coin. Not all of these will appear on every coin, due to die state differences. But there are enough similarities that this may help you decide. Send it in! George
PS Let me be the first to add that you -- *probably* -- SUCK!
Obverse Die No 1 —DIE MARKER. Only one die crack visible, extremely thin but covering an arc of about 120 degrees. Runs from halfway down the bridge of the nose in an arc all the way through the hair, terminating about at the back side of the ear. —Dotlike planchet indent on neck near forward V-shaped tip, directly up from J in JS designer's initials. Another dotlike planchet indent about in center of cheek. —Prominent diagonal (SW-NE) die polish lines on neck. —Touches of pinkish-gold on silver-white planchet. Glints of gold esp. prominent on Roosevelt's face. —Especially prominent die polish line connects bottoms of T and Y. —Lots of near-vertical die polish lines in fields before and behind portrait.
Reverse Reverse Die No 1 —DIE MARKER. Tiny comma-shaped raised die lump near the rim at 7:45, between the dot separating UNITED AND ONE and the O(NE). —DIE MARKER. Another tiny die lump near the left rim dot separating CA and ME. This one is smaller than the one at 7:45 and is more directly below the dot. Visible on the CoinFacts image. —DIE MARKER. Tiny die crack touches apex of last A in AMERICA and extends over but does not touch C. —DIE MARKER. Heavy die polishing throughout reverse is pretty much straight up and down. But a prominent die polish line runs diagonally NW-SE from between bottoms of IB to lowest (protruding) crossband on torch at its left side. —No sign of die lump on laurel leaves.
Best Regards,
George >>
George,
Thanks for the info. All of the die markers are on my coin. Die polish lines are all a match. Strike is much stronger than the normal business strike. Was there a difference in the planchet used? At this point it appears to come down to what is considered a "special strike". Is it simply that someone tightened up the press or lowered the tolerance and struck a few last coins on the dies way out? >>
I believe the only difference between an SMS strike and a business strike is the amount of pressure used, no special planchet preparation.
PCGS had an article about this year's SMS, no mention of special planchets: Link
<< <i> PCGS had an article about this year's SMS, no mention of special planchets: link >>
Of course the dies almost certainly recieved some special preparation. >>
I don't know, can it be confirmed that these dies were not used for business strikes? Looking at the SP65 from coinfacts and knowing there was only 1 obverse die used, only striking 30-40 coins isn't enough to nearly wipe out the die polishing lines is it?
<< <i>The 1964 SMS coins could have been produced at the end of the dies' lives in 1965 to test the method of manufacture, which seems to include a sharper than normal strike. Here's a CW article from last December about them. They are a bit of a mystery with no official records kept surrounding their manufacture. Sort of like the 1921 "Zerbe proof" dollars, although those were made at the beginning of the dies' lives. If the 1964 SMS coins were made at the end of the dies' lives, then the polishing we see may be additional polishing that prepared the dies for this striking, and thus indicate their SMS status if the die polishing lines are sharp and show no signs of erosion. It'll be interesting to see our host's call on this coin. although it will likely be a simple, sterile, "yes" or "no." >>
John,
I believe your statement that the coins were made at the end of the dies' life is the case with these coins. I also believe that they were testing the striking method in preparation for the 65 SMS coins.
Now, if correct......I am seeing two different die stages for two different '64 SMS coins. My coin appears to be of the later stage.
Take a look at lasvegasteddys coin above in this thread and then compare it to the coinfacts coin in my first post. Two different die stages, correct?
<< <i>I don't know, can it be confirmed that these dies were not used for business strikes? Looking at the SP65 from coinfacts and knowing there was only 1 obverse die used, only striking 30-40 coins isn't enough to nearly wipe out the die polishing lines is it? >>
Nope, especially on a dime. It would have been silly to produce dies to strike only a few dozen coins, so it is not only possible, but likely that these dies were used for normal business strikes. The polish you see may be a used die, hastily polished up again for these strikings, or it may be a fresh die used for a few strikings and then used for another could hundred thousand normal business strikes. Since there's no documentation that has yet been uncovered about these, we don't even know when in the year they were produced. It would seem silly to make them at the beginning of the year, knowing that there'd be normal proof sets. Making them at the end of the year, or even in 1965, closer to when the 1965 SMSs were produced seems more likely, but can't be proven. I'm sure someone with some time to kill at NARA could start looking for clues and evidence as to what happened.
one die variant that looks very clear is the crosslet on back of the "4" on 2 known examples...that bottom corner of the crosslet is square and sharp the one contesting is angled
another die variant on the 2 known sms imaged here...there is no raised dot behind the back of his neck contested coin clearly displays a raised dot there
everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see
<< <i>It sure looks like a 1964 SMS to me. I bought and sold the 1964 SMS SP67 dime depicted on CoinFacts, and have sold/seen about a dozen other coins of all denominations. I think only one die pair was used for the cents, nickels, and halves, but I'm not yet entirely sure about the dimes and quarters; there may have been more than one die pair used for those (and there are more of them around). This coin has the same sharp strike, heavy die polishing lines, clubby 6 and 9, and many other die markers that I noted on that SP67 dime. Notice the heavy die pollshing line running from bottom r. of I(BERTY) to the left lower bands. Exactly the same.
These are the notes I took on that coin. Not all of these will appear on every coin, due to die state differences. But there are enough similarities that this may help you decide. Send it in! George
PS Let me be the first to add that you -- *probably* -- SUCK!
Obverse Die No 1 —DIE MARKER. Only one die crack visible, extremely thin but covering an arc of about 120 degrees. Runs from halfway down the bridge of the nose in an arc all the way through the hair, terminating about at the back side of the ear. —Dotlike planchet indent on neck near forward V-shaped tip, directly up from J in JS designer's initials. Another dotlike planchet indent about in center of cheek. —Prominent diagonal (SW-NE) die polish lines on neck. —Touches of pinkish-gold on silver-white planchet. Glints of gold esp. prominent on Roosevelt's face. —Especially prominent die polish line connects bottoms of T and Y. —Lots of near-vertical die polish lines in fields before and behind portrait.
Reverse Reverse Die No 1 —DIE MARKER. Tiny comma-shaped raised die lump near the rim at 7:45, between the dot separating UNITED AND ONE and the O(NE). —DIE MARKER. Another tiny die lump near the left rim dot separating CA and ME. This one is smaller than the one at 7:45 and is more directly below the dot. Visible on the CoinFacts image. —DIE MARKER. Tiny die crack touches apex of last A in AMERICA and extends over but does not touch C. —DIE MARKER. Heavy die polishing throughout reverse is pretty much straight up and down. But a prominent die polish line runs diagonally NW-SE from between bottoms of IB to lowest (protruding) crossband on torch at its left side. —No sign of die lump on laurel leaves.
Best Regards,
George >>
George,
Thanks for the info. All of the die markers are on my coin. Die polish lines are all a match. Strike is much stronger than the normal business strike. Was there a difference in the planchet used? At this point it appears to come down to what is considered a "special strike". Is it simply that someone tightened up the press or lowered the tolerance and struck a few last coins on the dies way out? >>
I think wondering/worrying about when these were struck in relation to the normal business strikes is counterproductive. Who the heck knows? Nothing firm is known about the circumstances of their production. I have discussed the 1964 SMS coins with John Dannreuther and he told me "they [the Mint] took business strike dies, polished 'em up roughly, then struck them like proofs to see what they would look like." That's really all that is known, or believed by many experts at least, as it can be observed from the coins. I don't think the planchets were specially prepared in any way that I can tell, and I don't know for sure of any business strikes that were struck from the same dies -- but that doesn't mean there are none. (Your coin matches so many die markers, that even if PCGS calls it not an SMS, it's a really cool coin and something special. Maybe it is a business strike struck from the same die.) Some of the other posters have made some quite valid points, and I certainly respect their opinions.
At this juncture the only opinion that counts is that of PCGS. The only die marker that I know of that is *UNIQUE* to any of the five denominations --and by that I mean something beyond die polishing lines/sharp strikes that appears on the certified 1964 SMS coins that I have never seen on a business strike -- is one on the half dollar. Every one I have seen (five of the 12 graded at PCGS) have a tiny teardrop shape, an extra little tine of metal hanging down from the right side of the crossbar of the 4, to the right of the upright on the underside. Needless to say, I have looked at thousands of 1964 Kennedy halves, and I have never seen that die marker on a business strike. Which, again, does not mean they don't exist, but I don't know despite spending a lot of time studying these coins.
Anybody interested in observing that phenomenon can go to PCGS CoinFacts and type in PCGS #6844, which is my coin. Blow it up and you can see the little teardrop clearly there. (I have never had much luck posting photos on this site due to the size limitations).
<< <i>Now, if correct......I am seeing two different die stages for two different '64 SMS coins. My coin appears to be of the later stage.
Take a look at lasvegasteddys coin above in this thread and then compare it to the coinfacts coin in my first post. Two different die stages, correct? >>
I see two coins for which I can't conclusively match die markers. Notably, the polishing in LIBERTY that goes in a different direction from that in the field, and the line from the nose through the lips. If these are the same obverse die, different die stages, and only 30-50 coins were made in one sitting, I'd say that LVT's is the earlier die stage, then they decided to rough up the die and see how those looked. Strange issue.
I have a half dollar that was in the same group of coins as the dime. It has that little metal tag on the 4 as shown here. >>
Then we are back to the same issue as before. Do you have 1964 SMS coins, or business strikes struck from the same dies? I agree with Jim Sego that it's a long shot that such SMS coins got into circulation, but stranger things have happened. At this point you need to send the coins into PCGS. I am interesting in closeups of the half dollar!
Sure wish there was a way to confirm the 2004 Satin Finish Texas Quarters in the Texas Coin and Currency Set. Nothing to compare I guess like die markers used for these. Hope they are SMS 64s. Let us know either way.
. just to associate different time periods of coinage but with the same type of events that are possible
keep in mind the comments (i think that are in this thread) about how flans would get stuck in bins and other odd events that allow planchets to get mixed up pre-strike and post-strike
my main reason for posting now is the thread about the 1884-1885 nickel 3 cents being struck in medal presses (as proofs) being tossed into the BS bin because they failed to meet the standards permitting goodness only knows how many proofs from the nickel 3 cents series into circulation.
always enjoy this thread and the other thread(s) linked .
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>It sure looks like a 1964 SMS to me. I bought and sold the 1964 SMS SP67 dime depicted on CoinFacts, and have sold/seen about a dozen other coins of all denominations. I think only one die pair was used for the cents, nickels, and halves, but I'm not yet entirely sure about the dimes and quarters; there may have been more than one die pair used for those (and there are more of them around). This coin has the same sharp strike, heavy die polishing lines, clubby 6 and 9, and many other die markers that I noted on that SP67 dime. Notice the heavy die pollshing line running from bottom r. of I(BERTY) to the left lower bands. Exactly the same.
These are the notes I took on that coin. Not all of these will appear on every coin, due to die state differences. But there are enough similarities that this may help you decide. Send it in! George
PS Let me be the first to add that you -- *probably* -- SUCK!
Obverse Die No 1
—DIE MARKER. Only one die crack visible, extremely thin but covering an arc of about 120 degrees. Runs from halfway down the bridge of the nose in an arc all the way through the hair, terminating about at the back side of the ear.
—Dotlike planchet indent on neck near forward V-shaped tip, directly up from J in JS designer's initials. Another dotlike planchet indent about in center of cheek.
—Prominent diagonal (SW-NE) die polish lines on neck.
—Touches of pinkish-gold on silver-white planchet. Glints of gold esp. prominent on Roosevelt's face.
—Especially prominent die polish line connects bottoms of T and Y.
—Lots of near-vertical die polish lines in fields before and behind portrait.
Reverse
Reverse Die No 1
—DIE MARKER. Tiny comma-shaped raised die lump near the rim at 7:45, between the dot separating UNITED AND ONE and the O(NE).
—DIE MARKER. Another tiny die lump near the left rim dot separating CA and ME. This one is smaller than the one at 7:45 and is more directly below the dot. Visible on the CoinFacts image.
—DIE MARKER. Tiny die crack touches apex of last A in AMERICA and extends over but does not touch C.
—DIE MARKER. Heavy die polishing throughout reverse is pretty much straight up and down. But a prominent die polish line runs diagonally NW-SE from between bottoms of IB to lowest (protruding) crossband on torch at its left side.
—No sign of die lump on laurel leaves.
Best Regards,
George >>
George,
Thanks for the info. All of the die markers are on my coin. Die polish lines are all a match. Strike is much stronger than the normal business strike. Was there a difference in the planchet used? At this point it appears to come down to what is considered a "special strike". Is it simply that someone tightened up the press or lowered the tolerance and struck a few last coins on the dies way out? >>
I believe the only difference between an SMS strike and a business strike is the amount of pressure used, no special planchet preparation.
PCGS had an article about this year's SMS, no mention of special planchets: Link
<< <i>
PCGS had an article about this year's SMS, no mention of special planchets: link >>
Of course the dies almost certainly recieved some special preparation.
Some of the later, '65- '67, SMS planchets received special prep apparently.
<< <i>
<< <i>
PCGS had an article about this year's SMS, no mention of special planchets: link >>
Of course the dies almost certainly recieved some special preparation.
>>
I don't know, can it be confirmed that these dies were not used for business strikes? Looking at the SP65 from coinfacts and knowing there was only 1 obverse die used, only striking 30-40 coins isn't enough to nearly wipe out the die polishing lines is it?
<< <i>The 1964 SMS coins could have been produced at the end of the dies' lives in 1965 to test the method of manufacture, which seems to include a sharper than normal strike. Here's a CW article from last December about them. They are a bit of a mystery with no official records kept surrounding their manufacture. Sort of like the 1921 "Zerbe proof" dollars, although those were made at the beginning of the dies' lives. If the 1964 SMS coins were made at the end of the dies' lives, then the polishing we see may be additional polishing that prepared the dies for this striking, and thus indicate their SMS status if the die polishing lines are sharp and show no signs of erosion. It'll be interesting to see our host's call on this coin. although it will likely be a simple, sterile, "yes" or "no." >>
John,
I believe your statement that the coins were made at the end of the dies' life is the case with these coins. I also believe that they were testing the striking method in preparation for the 65 SMS coins.
Now, if correct......I am seeing two different die stages for two different '64 SMS coins. My coin appears to be of the later stage.
Take a look at lasvegasteddys coin above in this thread and then compare it to the coinfacts coin in my first post. Two different die stages, correct?
Thanks
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
<< <i>I don't know, can it be confirmed that these dies were not used for business strikes? Looking at the SP65 from coinfacts and knowing there was only 1 obverse die used, only striking 30-40 coins isn't enough to nearly wipe out the die polishing lines is it? >>
Nope, especially on a dime. It would have been silly to produce dies to strike only a few dozen coins, so it is not only possible, but likely that these dies were used for normal business strikes. The polish you see may be a used die, hastily polished up again for these strikings, or it may be a fresh die used for a few strikings and then used for another could hundred thousand normal business strikes. Since there's no documentation that has yet been uncovered about these, we don't even know when in the year they were produced. It would seem silly to make them at the beginning of the year, knowing that there'd be normal proof sets. Making them at the end of the year, or even in 1965, closer to when the 1965 SMSs were produced seems more likely, but can't be proven. I'm sure someone with some time to kill at NARA could start looking for clues and evidence as to what happened.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
on 2 known examples...that bottom corner of the crosslet is square and sharp
the one contesting is angled
another die variant on the 2 known sms imaged here...there is no raised dot behind the back of his neck
contested coin clearly displays a raised dot there
<< <i>
<< <i>It sure looks like a 1964 SMS to me. I bought and sold the 1964 SMS SP67 dime depicted on CoinFacts, and have sold/seen about a dozen other coins of all denominations. I think only one die pair was used for the cents, nickels, and halves, but I'm not yet entirely sure about the dimes and quarters; there may have been more than one die pair used for those (and there are more of them around). This coin has the same sharp strike, heavy die polishing lines, clubby 6 and 9, and many other die markers that I noted on that SP67 dime. Notice the heavy die pollshing line running from bottom r. of I(BERTY) to the left lower bands. Exactly the same.
These are the notes I took on that coin. Not all of these will appear on every coin, due to die state differences. But there are enough similarities that this may help you decide. Send it in! George
PS Let me be the first to add that you -- *probably* -- SUCK!
Obverse Die No 1
—DIE MARKER. Only one die crack visible, extremely thin but covering an arc of about 120 degrees. Runs from halfway down the bridge of the nose in an arc all the way through the hair, terminating about at the back side of the ear.
—Dotlike planchet indent on neck near forward V-shaped tip, directly up from J in JS designer's initials. Another dotlike planchet indent about in center of cheek.
—Prominent diagonal (SW-NE) die polish lines on neck.
—Touches of pinkish-gold on silver-white planchet. Glints of gold esp. prominent on Roosevelt's face.
—Especially prominent die polish line connects bottoms of T and Y.
—Lots of near-vertical die polish lines in fields before and behind portrait.
Reverse
Reverse Die No 1
—DIE MARKER. Tiny comma-shaped raised die lump near the rim at 7:45, between the dot separating UNITED AND ONE and the O(NE).
—DIE MARKER. Another tiny die lump near the left rim dot separating CA and ME. This one is smaller than the one at 7:45 and is more directly below the dot. Visible on the CoinFacts image.
—DIE MARKER. Tiny die crack touches apex of last A in AMERICA and extends over but does not touch C.
—DIE MARKER. Heavy die polishing throughout reverse is pretty much straight up and down. But a prominent die polish line runs diagonally NW-SE from between bottoms of IB to lowest (protruding) crossband on torch at its left side.
—No sign of die lump on laurel leaves.
Best Regards,
George >>
George,
Thanks for the info. All of the die markers are on my coin. Die polish lines are all a match. Strike is much stronger than the normal business strike. Was there a difference in the planchet used? At this point it appears to come down to what is considered a "special strike". Is it simply that someone tightened up the press or lowered the tolerance and struck a few last coins on the dies way out? >>
I think wondering/worrying about when these were struck in relation to the normal business strikes is counterproductive. Who the heck knows? Nothing firm is known about the circumstances of their production. I have discussed the 1964 SMS coins with John Dannreuther and he told me "they [the Mint] took business strike dies, polished 'em up roughly, then struck them like proofs to see what they would look like." That's really all that is known, or believed by many experts at least, as it can be observed from the coins. I don't think the planchets were specially prepared in any way that I can tell, and I don't know for sure of any business strikes that were struck from the same dies -- but that doesn't mean there are none. (Your coin matches so many die markers, that even if PCGS calls it not an SMS, it's a really cool coin and something special. Maybe it is a business strike struck from the same die.) Some of the other posters have made some quite valid points, and I certainly respect their opinions.
At this juncture the only opinion that counts is that of PCGS. The only die marker that I know of that is *UNIQUE* to any of the five denominations --and by that I mean something beyond die polishing lines/sharp strikes that appears on the certified 1964 SMS coins that I have never seen on a business strike -- is one on the half dollar. Every one I have seen (five of the 12 graded at PCGS) have a tiny teardrop shape, an extra little tine of metal hanging down from the right side of the crossbar of the 4, to the right of the upright on the underside. Needless to say, I have looked at thousands of 1964 Kennedy halves, and I have never seen that die marker on a business strike. Which, again, does not mean they don't exist, but I don't know despite spending a lot of time studying these coins.
Anybody interested in observing that phenomenon can go to PCGS CoinFacts and type in PCGS #6844, which is my coin. Blow it up and you can see the little teardrop clearly there. (I have never had much luck posting photos on this site due to the size limitations).
Good luck!
Best Regards,
George
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Here's the diagnostic on the half that George is mentioning
Thank you so much for that!
Best Regards,
George
I have a half dollar that was in the same group of coins as the dime. It has that little metal tag on the 4 as shown here.
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
<< <i>Now, if correct......I am seeing two different die stages for two different '64 SMS coins. My coin appears to be of the later stage.
Take a look at lasvegasteddys coin above in this thread and then compare it to the coinfacts coin in my first post. Two different die stages, correct? >>
I see two coins for which I can't conclusively match die markers. Notably, the polishing in LIBERTY that goes in a different direction from that in the field, and the line from the nose through the lips. If these are the same obverse die, different die stages, and only 30-50 coins were made in one sitting, I'd say that LVT's is the earlier die stage, then they decided to rough up the die and see how those looked. Strange issue.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Thanks again George.
I have a half dollar that was in the same group of coins as the dime. It has that little metal tag on the 4 as shown here. >>
Then we are back to the same issue as before. Do you have 1964 SMS coins, or business strikes struck from the same dies? I agree with Jim Sego that it's a long shot that such SMS coins got into circulation, but stranger things have happened. At this point you need to send the coins into PCGS. I am interesting in closeups of the half dollar!
Best Regards,
George
Box of 20
just to associate different time periods of coinage but with the same type of events that are possible
keep in mind the comments (i think that are in this thread) about how flans would get stuck in bins and other odd events that allow planchets to get mixed up pre-strike and post-strike
my main reason for posting now is the thread about the 1884-1885 nickel 3 cents being struck in medal presses (as proofs) being tossed into the BS bin because they failed to meet the standards permitting goodness only knows how many proofs from the nickel 3 cents series into circulation.
always enjoy this thread and the other thread(s) linked
.