your thoughts: Brilliant idea or a scam? Helmar Brewing Cards...

raykasa

Anybody ever seen what these cards are selling on ebay for? You will fall out of your chair! Basically the creator has made his own old cards (pre-war) and releases them in limited quantities. i won't deny they look interesting- but for what people are paying, makes me wonder if they fail to realise they are not vintage for 2005! efforts are clearly made to make them look old as well.. also any lawsuits in the future via Topps? And it makes me wonder.....

TNP777

Why would there be any basis for a lawsuit from Topps?

I know at one point the '05 Helmars were tremendously popular with many OBC (oldbaseball.com) members. I thought they were sorta cool, but not my cup o' tea.

As far as people not being aware they're not really vintage, they're all clearly labeled in the auction title. I suppose the same people might be fooled on some of the retro sets that Topps puts out.

edit: perhaps you're talking about the R319s, L1 leather and some of the die-cuts? Yeah, those aren't labeled in the title, but are clearly designated as recently-produced works of art. Really cool-looking stuff, in my opinion. Not Graig Kreindler cool, but cool nonetheless.

Helmar stuffs

PeteZaria

Keith Olbermann has been buying a ton of these cards.

raykasa

i have no problem with creating a new line of cards= but there is clear intent to make these cards look old, stained, with rounded corners..just saying it seems to be getting a ton of money for these cards..i guess one could say this is just art.

addicted2ebay

<< <i>Anybody ever seen what these cards are selling on ebay for? You will fall out of your chair! Basically the creator has made his own old cards (pre-war) and releases them in limited quantities. i won't deny they look interesting- but for what people are paying, makes me wonder if they fail to realise they are not vintage for 2005! efforts are clearly made to make them look old as well.. also any lawsuits in the future via Topps? And it makes me wonder..... >>



If there is any lawsuits I think it would be by a players estate or MLB. They use trademark team names. Not sure how they get away with it when Upper Deck got sued.

raykasa

good point; for MLB, it's probably small potatoes since the company has been around since 2005...hence no real pursuit to legally stop.

stown

<< <i>If there is any lawsuits I think it would be by a players estate or MLB. They use trademark team names. Not sure how they get away with it when Upper Deck got sued. >>



MLB, MLBPA, whoever now owns that card design, and so on. Makes no sense but they must have figured out a loophole.

vladguerrero

I like this card!

cwazzy

Would this be much different than selling art? Sports painters don't pay royalties to sell their work (at least not that I knwo of) and that happens all the time.

raykasa

yes. the more i think of it, i think these cards qualify as art and probably get a pass from conflicts/violations= it's shakey but i think it works. but those ebay prices make me want to break out the oils and brushes....

CollectorAtWork

I say scam.

cwazzy

<< <i>I say scam. >>



How is it any more of a scam than regular baseball cards or any other piece of art?

addicted2ebay

<< <i>

<< <i>I say scam. >>



How is it any more of a scam than regular baseball cards or any other piece of art? >>



- They artifically age the card.
- They copy R319, T206 ect.
- They do not put the year it was made on the card.
- They do not sign the card (don't most artist sign there work?) because it would not look like a original vintage card.

Scam is a little harsh but it could be confusing to a novice collector.

CocoaBeachDodgers

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I say scam. >>



How is it any more of a scam than regular baseball cards or any other piece of art? >>



- They artifically age the card.
- They copy R319, T206 ect.
- They do not put the year it was made on the card.
- They do not sign the card (don't most artist sign there work?) because it would not look like a original vintage card.

Scam is a little harsh but it could be confusing to a novice collector. >>



I'm going to go with addicted2ebay on this one.

I do not collect modern cards, hence, I do not stay on top of the newer items out there & was not aware of the newer Helmars. If you put in a search for PaPa Bell, you will find a bunch of newer cards, you will see the 1974 Laughlin, and than you will come upon this card. The seller has no date of when it was made, describes it as " The front has very good color with rounded corners, but no creases. The back shows some wear and some water spotting" He is making it appear to be an old card. And remember, because of the way you searched, you do not have the advantage of seeing all these other Helmar cards.
I actully ran across this exact situation about 2 months ago. I was not aware of this vintage card of Bell, so off I go to do some research before I was going to be the lucky person to buy this card. If I had not done by reserch, I or another unsuspected buyer could buy this card thinking he has found a diamond in the rough.
I guess they are kind of like a gun, dangerous in the wrong hands!
I don't know if the seller is intentionally trying to deceive or if he doesn't know what he has. He has good feedback but this is the only item he has listed.

cwazzy

I understand what you are saying. But I don't view it that way. They're works of art. It's no different than people selling reproduced photos of Conlon or posters of DaVinci. Only in this case they're making 100% original cards using a similar format to a famous brand. I think anyone who buys these knows exactly what they are bidding on. It's right there in the description. People make custom cards all the time. HeritageAddict and Knuckles made custom cards for autographs. No one would buy these thinking they are out of Upper Deck or Topps.

Again, I'm not trying to be a d*ck here, I'm just stating how I feel.

WinPitcher

In items specifics the linked card claims it is pre ww2.

Scam

cwazzy

<< <i>In items specifics the linked card claims it is pre ww2.

Scam >>



I did miss that and would agree that that is a bit on the shady side.

JohnnyD

<< <i>In items specifics the linked card claims it is pre ww2.

Scam >>



+1 You beat me to the punch pointing this out...

raykasa

that's a good eye there; i missed that too. why do they have to make the card look old? if it's art- why not make a nice card fresh out of the pack with it throwback design? because they want to earn some coin by making it seem like real vintage cards. starting to wonder if ebay might need a heads up for this "sales technique".

MateoC20

I don't believe this is a scam. I cannot speak for people who buy from the original artist "sirraffles" and then resell....but the artist himself states in his auction that they are recent, hand-made cards....


As for roughing them up to look old....I think this is part of the concept/art. Cards that never were....aged as if they were there the whole time. link

Toro

I consider myself an advanced collector but an amateur when it comes to preWW2 cards. I checked out the ebay link with the Helamr search and kinds rolled my eyes at everything that came up. It's obvious that players like Koufax and such wouldn't have cards that old but there seem to be older players that the sellers try and pass as much older than they really are. If they are works of art, they should be signed(IMO) and stated as such.

NVbaseball

I think they are truly great looking. Is there anywhere online where a customer says they feel like they were scammed? I have to believe most anyone who buys these does know what they are buying

TNP777

I think it does an incredible disservice to these cards and to Helmar to insinuate that they might be some sort of a scam. Very poor word choice, IMO.

CocoaBeachDodgers

Scam is way to harsh, and the more I think about it, I don't blame the manafacture.

But you need to check all the auctions in which they are being sold. Some are very up front, explaining when they were made, even showing past realized prices. Anybody buying in that auction knows exactly what they are getting.

But there are other auctions where this is not the case. The PaPa Bell is a good example. There is no mention of date made and the item description is very deceiving. I quote " The front has very good color with rounded corners, but no creases. The back shows some wear and some water spotting"

So if they are marketed properly, that's great, but if they are not, that is a scam!

stown

I agree, scam is not the appropriate terminology and a tad harsh. Possible copyright infringement, sure, but not a scam.

Those that make artwork/custom cards (ie Graig, AUPT, Heritage Addict, etc) may know if these cards are in violation or not. Again, it sounds like they may have a loophole but I'm not a lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

raykasa

deceptive is the apt word then. granted, one cannot afix all of the blame to the manufacturer of these cards- they are not the sole sellers on ebay; but once sold, the new owner of these cards(or card) should disclose that its a modern piece of art. Sadly, that's not happening though....

larryallen73

Waste of money to me.