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I spy with my little eye ... an 1840 Durango 8 Reales pattern

Wouldn't know until prices realized are published, but there's a small chance I might have won this one. Especially if you consider it was being offered in Scotland and unattributed. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, because this would be a pretty cool score.

Thoughts?

image

Comments

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very nice eye appeal. Dont know the series at all yet its an appealing type.
  • DeiGratiaDeiGratia Posts: 273 ✭✭✭
    ooohh good luck.
    never got into cap and rays myself so I'm of no help.

    Ask SwamperBob!!
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    2K, I hope you got it!!!

    I know a little something about Mexican patterns as I have been collecting them for about 15 years.

    This one usually comes in silver-plated bronze (Sheffield plate), although it is known in white metal and silver (both very rare). The plated variety is plentiful as patterns go, maybe 32-64 known (I like specifying rarity as a power of 2).

    They are thought to have been struck in Spain.

    Believe it or not, the last one (before yours) sold in the Sep 2011 Heritage Long Beach sale for $12,000 plus the juice. I was a bidder but dropped out at a reasonable $3500 or so, but two Internet cowboys slugged it out to my astonishment, especially since it wasn't even a really nice example! Although it was graded AU58 by NGC, the edge was simply awful.

    I have it on good authority that another specimen will be coming to market before the year is out.

    Mind if I ask how much you paid once you're sure it's yours?

    Once you have it in hand, ping me for authenticating diagnostics. The die looks good from the photo, but it almost appears cast???
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It was an AU55. My mistake. Link to lot.
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pruebas, there's surprisingly little information online about this coin. The only thing I found was a write-up by Kent Ponterio in one of the Numismatics International periodicals. Here's an online version.

    I will let you know once I know if I won this one.
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, it seems that I was the highest bidder! Sweet!
  • PBRatPBRat Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭
    Let's hear the details.
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Let's hear the details. >>



    Sure - last week I was doing searches using various auction search engines and this one came up being offered in a coin portion of a large Jewelry/Porcelain/Furniture auction by Taylors Auction Rooms in Scotland. It was described simply as "1840 MEXICAN CAP & RAY 8 REALES (60-80)" with 60-80 GBP being the estimate. Since Cap and Rays in not really my thing, I quickly scanned the lot and realized the legend doesn't make any sense. The mint-mark was Durango, but assayer was O.M.C. instead of the correct R.M. and there was an extra letter A before the mint-mark in the legend. I quickly filed this coin under "counterfeit" and was ready to move on when, out of curiosity, decided to do a quick web search for the legend. So I googled '1840 durango "8R A Do" ' and the first thing popped-up was Kent Ponterio's article on this pattern. The second link was to a page from American Numismatic Society describing their example of this pattern without an image, but with a well-described legend and Julius Guttag pedigree. After comparing the coin being offered by Taylors to the one pictured in Ponterio article, I felt it was a pretty good die match.

    I contacted Taylors and they informed me that they do not offer any kind of phone/online bidding, but that they would accept an absentee bid on my behalf. A quick search of past auctions didn't result in a hit, so I had no idea what to put down as a bid. I ended-up deciding how much "numismatic tuition" I was willing to spend on a potential counterfeit and that resulted in a 300GBP bid. It appears I was not the only bidder interested in this coin, since the final bid was 280GBP (the lot opened at 60GBP).

    I will take better pics of all 3 sides and do the measurements including specific gravity once I receive it. After that I think I will submit it to PCGS for attribution and metallurgic analysis to confirm specific gravity results.

    Pretty excited about the whole ordeal. Haven't had this happen to me before on a scale like this. Normally it's something along the lines of cherry-picking an unattributed variety that most sellers wouldn't even consider to be worth a premium.
  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Roman, excellent news!

    If your tests prove it is pure coin silver (rather than plated), then you REALLY scored!

    About the cost, I suspect that they favored their consignor in awarding you the lot, an unfortunate problem in absentee bidding (and with some houses more than others). But what choice did you have?!

    Still, a great deal at <$500 all in.

    My only concern is that "cast look" it seems to have. What do you think?
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hard to tell from those images, but I'm not seeing much dentil damage that would be associated with a cast. There's some pitting on the cap, but i don't think it's due to the casting. We'll see once it arrives.
  • DeiGratiaDeiGratia Posts: 273 ✭✭✭
    Wow Great News and an Awesome find !!
    Keep us updated !!

    I always seem to win my bids for 10-20 Euros below my Top bid...... Hmmm I wonder.... oh well image
  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    same here, 10-40 below top bid.....I hate to do it.
    Auctioneers all say they are honest..., well they might be, sort of...
    they simply plant someone in the auction room to bid. when the auctioneer stops looking at that person, you won the lot, usually just below your price.
    I know they do it in Spain!
    another scam they use is this:
    they say we have several mail bids. hence we start the auction at...., usually just under your bid, but much higher than the original starting price. done all the time.
    But proving it is another thing...
    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The coin is finally here and I had a chance to image it and perform specific gravity testing. Weight is 26.78g and SG of 8.44 sounds about right for silver plated bronze. Same crazy rotation as the coin in the Heritage auction and the same die markers.

    The edge is milled and shows evidence of plating. Interesting effect in the legend - letters almost seem shifted, leaving a depressed image of the letter right below it. You can clearly see this ghosting under "O.M.C.10.D".

    image
    image
    image
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    After 3 weeks at NGC undergoing research and having experts brought in to examine it, the verdict is: XF details - hairlines. Bodybag is disappointing (and somewhat surprising) but it was confirmed as a genuine KM-PN59 silver-plated bronze pattern.
  • tydyetydye Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭
    Congrats! What a cool find.
  • ormandhormandh Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭
    WOW! I did not realize that there were patterns of these coins. -Dan
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