How to sell a raw, mint Topps MLB 1969 set (664/664)?
roadrunner
Posts: 28,310 ✭✭✭✭✭
I'm asking the question for a friend who has decided to sell the set he purchased as a kid in 1969 to celebrate his team winning the world series. The set is basically
untouched mint with all the gloss and crispness of brand new cards. However, he readily admits the centering is typical for that period and therefore probably not worth the
trouble in getting the cards graded. Selling anything you've held for so long is painful. I'm sure he'd prefer it to go to a good home to someone who would appreciate it as he
has. He did mention calling up a "major" on line card dealer who basically brushed him off. Ideally, showing the set to 2 or 3 serious players and then picking the best offer
would be the least troublesome. I know he's not up for selling this on Ebay as I can imagine all the potential problems that could result (switched cards, no payment, etc.). If he
felt he was getting a fair offer from the first person the set was shown to, he'd likely sell it. And it wouldn't matter if someone showed up an hour later and offered 5% or even 50%
more, the initial deal would be honored. That's just the way he is. Wasting time tire kicking is not something he enjoys.
It would seem to me that selling the set intact would be the wisest thing so as not to be left with 500-600 cards that no one wants. He's in the SoCal area so I know there is a
large contingent of dealers/collectors in that region. But I also know that he's not going to carry the set from shop to shop. Heck, I doubt he would even take it to one shop just to
avoid the hassle, haggling, and disappointment that always seems to accompany a vist to a local shop. He just tried that with some gold jewelry and was so displeased with the whole
process that he is sending the stuff 3,000 miles to the east coast to a dealer I recomended who WILL give him a great offer. The Long Beach Convention center hosts major coin shows
3X per year. Is there a strong baseball card contingent during those shows that it would be worthwhile to attend the September show? I know plenty about buying and selling coins
over the past 45 yrs....not much at all about cards, especially where all the value seems to be in how they are centered. Any help would be appreciated including a couple of dealers
or collectors who might be worth contacting. I have a 20 yr relationship with the seller that was forged in collector cars. So I'd like to try and do him a good turn and point him in the
right direction. They won't be going to an auction either. Too long and time consuming, let alone the fees. PMs welcome. Thanks.
PS. He's not put a price on the set or what he might want. The last time I checked prices on these was back during the 2005-2008 run up when I was told by a member here that a range of $3K to $4K was realistic. If the card market got hit as hard as coins did the past 3 yrs, then it would down 25-40% as well. But then again, this set is not your run of the mill
put-together set or something that was played with. From what I've seen checking a few sports card's dealer retail pricing for 1960's sets, I'd say that a fair retail price is in the $2.5K to $3.5K range. Wholesale probably $2K and up ($3 per card ave). I'll see if I can get some photos of the key cards and make them available. Just found out too that there is a BST for sports cards as well. I'll see if the seller does have a bottom line price on the set or at least a BIN price.
untouched mint with all the gloss and crispness of brand new cards. However, he readily admits the centering is typical for that period and therefore probably not worth the
trouble in getting the cards graded. Selling anything you've held for so long is painful. I'm sure he'd prefer it to go to a good home to someone who would appreciate it as he
has. He did mention calling up a "major" on line card dealer who basically brushed him off. Ideally, showing the set to 2 or 3 serious players and then picking the best offer
would be the least troublesome. I know he's not up for selling this on Ebay as I can imagine all the potential problems that could result (switched cards, no payment, etc.). If he
felt he was getting a fair offer from the first person the set was shown to, he'd likely sell it. And it wouldn't matter if someone showed up an hour later and offered 5% or even 50%
more, the initial deal would be honored. That's just the way he is. Wasting time tire kicking is not something he enjoys.
It would seem to me that selling the set intact would be the wisest thing so as not to be left with 500-600 cards that no one wants. He's in the SoCal area so I know there is a
large contingent of dealers/collectors in that region. But I also know that he's not going to carry the set from shop to shop. Heck, I doubt he would even take it to one shop just to
avoid the hassle, haggling, and disappointment that always seems to accompany a vist to a local shop. He just tried that with some gold jewelry and was so displeased with the whole
process that he is sending the stuff 3,000 miles to the east coast to a dealer I recomended who WILL give him a great offer. The Long Beach Convention center hosts major coin shows
3X per year. Is there a strong baseball card contingent during those shows that it would be worthwhile to attend the September show? I know plenty about buying and selling coins
over the past 45 yrs....not much at all about cards, especially where all the value seems to be in how they are centered. Any help would be appreciated including a couple of dealers
or collectors who might be worth contacting. I have a 20 yr relationship with the seller that was forged in collector cars. So I'd like to try and do him a good turn and point him in the
right direction. They won't be going to an auction either. Too long and time consuming, let alone the fees. PMs welcome. Thanks.
PS. He's not put a price on the set or what he might want. The last time I checked prices on these was back during the 2005-2008 run up when I was told by a member here that a range of $3K to $4K was realistic. If the card market got hit as hard as coins did the past 3 yrs, then it would down 25-40% as well. But then again, this set is not your run of the mill
put-together set or something that was played with. From what I've seen checking a few sports card's dealer retail pricing for 1960's sets, I'd say that a fair retail price is in the $2.5K to $3.5K range. Wholesale probably $2K and up ($3 per card ave). I'll see if I can get some photos of the key cards and make them available. Just found out too that there is a BST for sports cards as well. I'll see if the seller does have a bottom line price on the set or at least a BIN price.
0
Comments
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
My collecting blog: http://ctcard.wordpress.com
Nice to see you over here on the sportscardforum.
In my humble opinion your friend has really only one option to get the best price.
There is a seller in North Jersey name Rick Probstein. He is an active poster on this board, and if you PM him he will answer back quickly.
Rick has a great following, and gets top dollar for items on ebay. He also is very active in the Tri-State area, home of many a Mets fan.
His ebay ID is probstein123.
Contacting Rick is the best possible option for your friend getting the best service and price possible.
Best of luck
Thanks to all. Will be getting back to people when I have more info.
he still has the box and possibly any original paperwork that came with it. But still waiting for word back on that. He has always struck me as the type who would
save everything associated with a collectible. When he owned his '68 Plymouth GTX from 1983-2006 you would not believe the amount of factory documentation he
had with that car. If a 14 yr old kid saves up $50 to buy a set of BBall cards, you would think that's a very special purchase that is going to receive extra special
treatment over the years. But I also realize that a lot of adults ordered these sets new just to put them away for whatever reason. I was 15 in 1969 and had a lot of
fond baseball memories such as Reggie Jackson's record home run pace in the 1st half of the season. Oddly, at 15 was probably when I peaked in baseball and started
to lose interest to other sports.
<< <i>I wasn't aware of Topps producing any factory sets before 1974. >>
I agree as far as the general public is concerned. JC Penny, I believe, was the first "retailer" to sell the sets and 1974 was the first year.
However, is it possible that salesmen received a complete set as a sample? I know they received salesman samples of cards, but not sure about the full set.
But as you stated, I am not aware of any complete sets being offered to the general public back in '69. In addition, the price he said he paid for it back then ... $50.00 ... seems VERY high!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Hello roadrunner.
Nice to see you over here on the sportscardforum.
In my humble opinion your friend has really only one option to get the best price.
There is a seller in North Jersey name Rick Probstein. He is an active poster on this board, and if you PM him he will answer back quickly.
Rick has a great following, and gets top dollar for items on ebay. He also is very active in the Tri-State area, home of many a Mets fan.
His ebay ID is probstein123.
Contacting Rick is the best possible option for your friend getting the best service and price possible.
Best of luck >>
I agree with the probstein123 suggestion. I have had many dealings with him.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wasn't aware of Topps producing any factory sets before 1974. >>
I agree as far as the general public is concerned. JC Penny, I believe, was the first "retailer" to sell the sets and 1974 was the first year.
However, is it possible that salesmen received a complete set as a sample? I know they received salesman samples of cards, but not sure about the full set.
But as you stated, I am not aware of any complete sets being offered to the general public back in '69. In addition, the price he said he paid for it back then ... $50.00 ... seems VERY high! >>
Interesting. I relayed this information to him as well. I'm just the messenger here. He bought a full set of cards from somewhere in 1969. It just may be that I assumed these
had to come from the factory. Our last detailed discussion on this set was several years ago.
I bought BB cards in the 1964-1967 era and recall them being 5C a pack (ie 1c each). So paying 8X the per pack price for a complete set does sound like a ton of money.
Of course there were cards you rarely saw and others that you got many duplicates of. Even back then if you wanted a Mantle card the going price was 25c to $1.50 depending
on the year....which I thought was nuts. I'd like to hear the answers to these questions as well.
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
I can say for sure, that I bought this card as a complete set, as a mail ordered set, and for sure it was not thru JC Penny. I want to say I paid 14 dollars from a mail order place out of New York ( or somewhere "back east" ), collector card association? or something like that, I even got a album to put some of them in ( somewhere, I have that album, I think )
I mail ordered a complete 1969 set, from them, it all came in the mail, it was all 664 cards. It was a package deal. And I am sure, I got the mailing address out of the back of a comic book, a small ad. The $14.00 figure has been the amt I remember, all these years. I had to have them b/c it was the Tigers who won the world series, and I lived near Detroit, I was 12 (or 13 ) at the time i got them. I had the Bill Freehan card signed in something like the late 70's, when my younger brother was playing baseball, and got to meet ( or work with ) Bill Freehan for a day. From 1969 to 1995, the cards were in a box, with some of them being in the album. I think i pulled them out in 1984 to show them to someone, otherwise, I virtually never looked at them, since I got them. I of course looked at them in 1969, but not much, they pretty much stayed in the box, and in the album, even back then.
I think I checked off ( all the check boxes ) one of the checklist cards, not sure, will have to see that, if I did ??? In about 1995 i went to a card store and bought a modern album, acid free clear vinyl sleeves, ( in a loose leaf binder ) made for collector cards ( that sort of thing ). I will ( definitely ) scan the keys, and send that scan to you ( might not get to that for 7 -14 days, though ). When I recently looked at the cards, with a more critical eye, it just seemed like the centering was the biggest shortfall of the cards, otherwise they are exceptional ( but I'm no pro at deciding that ).
So it will be a few weeks before any scans become available. And for now, no pricing range was suggested or hinted at. Thanks again for the numerous comments and suggestions.
<< <i>Here's a detailed recounting from my friend. Obviously, my recollection of details from several years ago was not so good.
I can say for sure, that I bought this card as a complete set, as a mail ordered set, and for sure it was not thru JC Penny. I want to say I paid 14 dollars from a mail order place out of New York ( or somewhere "back east" ), collector card association? or something like that, I even got a album to put some of them in ( somewhere, I have that album, I think )
I mail ordered a complete 1969 set, from them, it all came in the mail, it was all 664 cards. It was a package deal. And I am sure, I got the mailing address out of the back of a comic book, a small ad. The $14.00 figure has been the amt I remember, all these years. I had to have them b/c it was the Tigers who won the world series, and I lived near Detroit, I was 12 (or 13 ) at the time i got them. I had the Bill Freehan card signed in something like the late 70's, when my younger brother was playing baseball, and got to meet ( or work with ) Bill Freehan for a day. From 1969 to 1995, the cards were in a box, with some of them being in the album. I think i pulled them out in 1984 to show them to someone, otherwise, I virtually never looked at them, since I got them. I of course looked at them in 1969, but not much, they pretty much stayed in the box, and in the album, even back then.
I think I checked off ( all the check boxes ) one of the checklist cards, not sure, will have to see that, if I did ??? In about 1995 i went to a card store and bought a modern album, acid free clear vinyl sleeves, ( in a loose leaf binder ) made for collector cards ( that sort of thing ). I will ( definitely ) scan the keys, and send that scan to you ( might not get to that for 7 -14 days, though ). When I recently looked at the cards, with a more critical eye, it just seemed like the centering was the biggest shortfall of the cards, otherwise they are exceptional ( but I'm no pro at deciding that ).
So it will be a few weeks before any scans become available. And for now, no pricing range was suggested or hinted at. >>
Based on this description and the handling to get the Freehan signed, marking off a checklist and putting some cards in albums, I'm guessing the set is more in the EX to EX-MT condition range rather than NM+. I hope I'm wrong though.
~SoCal OG Local Boy~
<< <i>Sounds like a regular hand collated set from a dealer but it's still got a great story. Cant wait to see the scans! >>
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wasn't aware of Topps producing any factory sets before 1974. >>
I agree as far as the general public is concerned. JC Penny, I believe, was the first "retailer" to sell the sets and 1974 was the first year. >>
Wasn't it SEARS?
<< <i>ny..betcha it was woody gelmans place...cardcollectors company >>
I concur. I don't think Renata Galasso was in business until a few years later.. I recall buying sets from CCC (it was always tough to get mom to write out a check for $13.95 which included s/h) until Galasso came on the scene around 1973.
Using that logic, essentially every card that comes out of PSA has been handled a min of 3X. Sort of suggests to me that there is no such thing as a perfectly mint and "unused" card. MS/PF 69-70 coins can be handled multiple times as well and retain their lofty PCGS/NGC grades.
Was the centering of cards a big deal back in the 1960's that dealers would assemble these generic sets with the poorest centered cards they had available to them? I would think that would be true considering that US postage stamps and currency already had those criteria in place. Or for $14/set was it even worth the effort to take the time to pull a nicely centered car and substitute it with a poorer one?
<< <i>Based on this description and the handling to get the Freehan signed, marking off a checklist and putting some cards in albums, I'm guessing the set is more in the EX to EX-MT condition range rather than NM+. I hope I'm wrong though.
Using that logic, essentially every card that comes out of PSA has been handled a min of 3X. Sort of suggests to me that there is no such thing as a perfectly mint and "unused" card. MS/PF 69-70 coins can be handled multiple times as well and retain their lofty PCGS/NGC grades.
Was the centering of cards a big deal back in the 1960's that dealers would assemble these generic sets with the poorest centered cards they had available to them? I would think that would be true considering that US postage stamps and currency already had those criteria in place. Or for $14/set was it even worth the effort to take the time to pull a nicely centered
car and substitute it with a poorer one? >>
I recall the mail-away sets from CCC and Galasso being a smorgasbord of centering and print flaws. Pretty much what you got out of packs or vending boxes. In the day, I used to order each series (around $4.00 per with s/h) and an end of season complete set and then build the best possible set from the packs that I had opened. I was always a stickler for corners and centering and a sharp card with great centering and a wax stain would always trump an o/c or damaged card when I was collating.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>Based on this description and the handling to get the Freehan signed, marking off a checklist and putting some cards in albums, I'm guessing the set is more in the EX to EX-MT condition range rather than NM+. I hope I'm wrong though.
Using that logic, essentially every card that comes out of PSA has been handled a min of 3X. Sort of suggests to me that there is no such thing as a perfectly mint and "unused" card. MS/PF 69-70 coins can be handled multiple times as well and retain their lofty PCGS/NGC grades.
Was the centering of cards a big deal back in the 1960's that dealers would assemble these generic sets with the poorest centered cards they had available to them? I would think that would be true considering that US postage stamps and currency already had those criteria in place. Or for $14/set was it even worth the effort to take the time to pull a nicely centered car and substitute it with a poorer one? >>
Not that he needs it with his long tenure on the boards but I can vouch for RR be a respected and valuable member of the coin forum for the last couple years.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
<< <i>Based on this description and the handling to get the Freehan signed, marking off a checklist and putting some cards in albums, I'm guessing the set is more in the EX to EX-MT condition range rather than NM+. I hope I'm wrong though.
Using that logic, essentially every card that comes out of PSA has been handled a min of 3X. Sort of suggests to me that there is no such thing as a perfectly mint and "unused" card. MS/PF 69-70 coins can be handled multiple times as well and retain their lofty PCGS/NGC grades.
Was the centering of cards a big deal back in the 1960's that dealers would assemble these generic sets with the poorest centered cards they had available to them? I would think that would be true considering that US postage stamps and currency already had those criteria in place. Or for $14/set was it even worth the effort to take the time to pull a nicely centered car and substitute it with a poorer one? >>
The handling I'm referring to is removing them from the box and replacing them back in the box, handling them at age 13, marking checklist, etc. I was pretty careful with my cards as a kid but they still suffered light wear. Also, the 1977 football set I purchased from Galasso back in the day came in a box with a lid that closed on the inside, meaning the lid rubbed against the top outer corner of every card each time I opened it. The handling PSA does is done by people who handle cards thousands of times a day. It's not unheard of for PSA to damage a card while handling it but I can count on one hand the number of times they've damaged a card in the thousands I've submitted.
Like I said, I hope I'm wrong and there's no corner touches. It doesn't take much to turn a mint card into an EX-MT card.
I still think the smartest thing to do is have PSA grade the Top 10 cards, and leave the rest of the set as is, and then ship to Rick.
The Mantle is at best 70-30 L to R (worst 75-25), and maybe 60-40 or 55-45 Top to Bottom. There is the slightest tilt to the L to R border. Wouldn't go so far as to say that's diamond cut, but it's visible imo. On Mantle's left temple looks like a small printing "line." (size of the NY lettering in his cap). The centering on the other cards was better but a long ways from
excellent. The Killebrew was the best at around 60-40. Corners on all of these look pretty sharp to me. These photos are imbedded in the emails so not much I can do with them.
Since I don't want to become a photographic transcription service, I've asked him to post these to a photo account somewhere. Spent an hour yesterday on the PSA site reading about
grading as well as the pecularities of the '69 set. Interesting.
I would think that most of these cards will probably grade 6-8. Hopefully a few 9's and very few 6's or worse. In comparing the Killebrew to a PSA 8 in a ranked PSA set, I don't see
any difference other than centering. The PSA 8 probably has 5% better borders. But I can also see some slight tilt to the graded card just as with the Mantle above that might offset
that. No tilt in the raw Killebrew though. The PSA 8 Mantle in this set doesn't show that same streak on his temple. So that must be an imperfection. Still, it seems to meet the
requirements for PSA 7 and not any worse than the PSA 6's I saw on Ebay. A few of the PSA graded cards are listed as MC, ST, or OC. Some of the off centered ones are far better
centered than the ones not labeled "oc." I don't get it.