Ethics here in World and Ancient Coins Forum...

CCC2010

First and foremost: This is posted as part of a learning experience for all the others conducting business in our hosts forum. So all of us will learn from each others experience. I am not going to Out the seller. This is NOT the purpose of this thread. ( Seller pls. DO NOT out yourself.)

I have been waiting for a purchase from one of the sellers here in the World Coin forum for 19 days now on a coin he sent first class via USPS. He says that his responsibility ended when he mailed the coin to me and that i did not ask him to get insurance to cover the coin incase of a loss.
I have mentioned to this seller that i have waited patiently for a very long time and just want to get my money refunded as i do not want this coin any longer after waiting all this time.
He mentioned that he Just followed up with the USPS customer service today to track down this coin and that this is The Best that he can do for me ... So am i correct to assume and to read between the lines that if this coin is lost ...i lose out since i did not ask the seller to get insurance? Should have I??? I pointed out to him that he as a seller is still responsible for the coin getting to me safely as his buyer even after he mailed the coin in the post office. I used Paypal Gift. I am not going to use Paypal gift ever again... That is for me lesson #1. What are your thoughts? Is he correct in his assumptions?

SaorAlba

¿How did you pay them? Cheque, money order, or payPoo?

FilthyBroke

I would like to know who thinks that he isn't responsible for a package delivery to my door. Maybe PM me with the seller's name? It's just common sense if you want to sell online and ship merchandise. Seller is responsible to the buyer's door. Think about how you'd feel if Best Buy or Amazon or whoever shipped you a new flat-screen and it didn't quite find your house, is that your responsibility or theirs?

And since you mention no-fee PayPal, I may have a clue. No-fee PayPal or "gift" shouldn't be used in a business transaction, period.

Swampboy

Paypal 'gift' used for a 'purchase' discussed in another thread re: ethics on the CU Forums.
I sometimes feel as if I'm the only one who sees the irony.

FilthyBroke

I'll add that the seller should purchase insurance for his own protection, since he is assuming responsibility for delivery. Especially on items of substancial value.

tewcd

Generally, under the Uniform Commerical Code, as modified in your state, the risk falls on the buyer the minute the item is put in the mail. All the seller needs to do is provide proof of shipping. The only way this gets turned around is if the seller is a merchant (ie: someone who regularly and customarily deals in the sale of goods of the type the seller is shipping to the buyer). If the seller is a merchant, they retain liability for loss until delivery to the buyer.

This isn't necessarily true in every state, and it is only based off general principles of law. But providing it is true in one's state, and providing a seller is like most of us, a regular joe who sold something from his collection, the seller's liability may end the minute the item goes into the stream of mail.

Ebay and Paypal provide extra protection, however, by basically assuming that every seller is a merchant, which is why the buyer is almost always right in those systems.

**NOTE: I am an attorney licensed by the State Bar of North Carolina; I am not licensed in any other State, and the foregoing information is for informational and educational purposes ONLY. This does not constitute legal advice, and absolutely NO Attorney-Client relationship has been created by me typing the above information.***

tewcd

<< <i>I would like to know who thinks that he isn't responsible for a package delivery to my door. Maybe PM me with the seller's name? It's just common sense if you want to sell online and ship merchandise. Seller is responsible to the buyer's door. Think about how you'd feel if Best Buy or Amazon or whoever shipped you a new flat-screen and it didn't quite find your house, is that your responsibility or theirs? >>



Filthy, the answer would be almost 90% of this board, since most of us wouldn't qualify as merchants. Merchants (Amazon, Best Buy, etc) generally are responsible to your door. Regular non-merchants who sell items sporadically or not for profit are, under most states' laws, only liable to the point shipment is tendered.

CCC2010

<< <i>

<< <i>I would like to know who thinks that he isn't responsible for a package delivery to my door. Maybe PM me with the seller's name? It's just common sense if you want to sell online and ship merchandise. Seller is responsible to the buyer's door. Think about how you'd feel if Best Buy or Amazon or whoever shipped you a new flat-screen and it didn't quite find your house, is that your responsibility or theirs? >>



Filthy, the answer would be almost 90% of this board, since most of us wouldn't qualify as merchants. Merchants (Amazon, Best Buy, etc) generally are responsible to your door. Regular non-merchants who sell items sporadically or not for profit are, under most states' laws, only liable to the point shipment is tendered. >>



So Even if say for example the seller wrote down the wrong address or zip code or mailed the package to the wrong person. Is he/she still not responsible since he/she dropped it off in the Post Office thus he/she is no longer liable because he/she is not a Merchant

FilthyBroke

<< <i>

<< <i>I would like to know who thinks that he isn't responsible for a package delivery to my door. Maybe PM me with the seller's name? It's just common sense if you want to sell online and ship merchandise. Seller is responsible to the buyer's door. Think about how you'd feel if Best Buy or Amazon or whoever shipped you a new flat-screen and it didn't quite find your house, is that your responsibility or theirs? >>



Filthy, the answer would be almost 90% of this board, since most of us wouldn't qualify as merchants. Merchants (Amazon, Best Buy, etc) generally are responsible to your door. Regular non-merchants who sell items sporadically or not for profit are, under most states' laws, only liable to the point shipment is tendered. >>



I don't know the letter of the law, but I have a good feel for responsibility and ethics. I wouldn't knowingly purchase from a seller who feels he isn't responsible for delivery.

Maybe we need to add notes on our sales listings, stating these terms in strict terms. Like, "will not be held responsible for complete delivery", or "I am done when the envelope hits the mailbox". That would certainly help to guide future transactions for me.

TwoKopeiki

To avoid questions like these I always ship insured and tracked (often out of my own pocket) just to cover my butt. In this case I would issue a refund and taking it up with CanadaPost or USPS. Since there was no insurance on the package in your case (by the way - did you decline it or was it not offered?) it all depends on the letter of the law and what each party considers "right behavior".

CCC2010

<< <i>To avoid questions like these I always ship insured and tracked (often out of my own pocket) just to cover my butt. In this case I would issue a refund and taking it up with CanadaPost or USPS. Since there was no insurance on the package in your case (by the way - did you decline it or was it not offered?) it all depends on the letter of the law and what each party considers "right behavior". >>



Insurance was not offered or declined... I as a seller always insure my coin shipments to cover for cases like this because i know i am responsible up until the buyer recieves his or her coins. Plus i offer a no questions asked return policy because i want my buyers to be highly satisfied with what they purchased. Its all about doing the right thing is how i conduct my self and i expected the same reasonable treatment from other board members.

nibanny

While I appreciated tewcd's insight (I always like to learn something new), I feel that the majority of the forum members would expect the seller to be responsible until the package gets delivered.
In my field we have the incoterms which tell us where either the vendor or the buyer responsibility starts.
It wouldn't make sense here on the forum since we are not signing contracts but deals are based on a gentlemen agreement (at least this is what I think).

I agree with TwoKopeiki, insurance is meant to cover the seller's butt. It will be different if the package shows as delivered since the seller did whatever he could.

JMHO

marcmoish

Right off the bat did you know it was at your risk?

If NOT that doesn't sound fair or ethical...seller dumps the coin in the mailbox and his hands are wiped clean seems wrong...

JCMhouston

When I sell things I always ship insured and with delivery confirmation to protect myself as the seller. I always feel like it is my responsibility to get the item to the buyer.

Zohar

This is a commercial term - I always price assuming insurance/delivery confirmation which is to be agreed with buyer. If buyer doesnt wish to pay and take the risk save the post office receipt to show it was sent without insurance at buyers risk.

mrpotatoheadd

1. Based on what I've read, tewcd is correct regarding the UCC.
2. Assuming that other people will do things the way you do is a good way to end up disappointed. I know it's too late here, but it's best to confirm whatever things are important to you before agreeing to a deal.

Andres

Quote: I am not going to use PayPal gift ever again ....
my thought would be: I am not going to do business ever again with this member.
sounds to me as an unfriendly person, to put it mildly.

Are we talking about a $10 coin or a $100 + coin ?


if it is a more expensive coin, the seller should have shipped it ""signed for""
if it's a cheap coin, the seller should make a refund in your PayPal account.

* some people dont know how to ship coins or currency paper , they dont use cardboard and put the stuff in flimsy enveloppes.
banknotes get damaged that way, and coins will escape from such enveloppes.

just my 2cents

PS: Preview message option doesn't work anymore, am I the only one ???

tewcd

<< <i>So Even if say for example the seller wrote down the wrong address or zip code or mailed the package to the wrong person. Is he/she still not responsible since he/she dropped it off in the Post Office thus he/she is no longer liable because he/she is not a Merchant >>



No, in that case, the seller would be responsible for their own error.

As a side note, I'm still not saying I agree with the seller in this instance. I'm just saying as a baseline, the law says the minimum responsibility an amateur seller has is to (1) address the label correctly, and (2) put the item in the mail.

Now, I want to be clear -- I will always refund money to a buyer on a lost item, unless it's being claimed as "lost" when my tracking info says it has been delivered.

LochNESS

I never ship anything without a tracking number. Funny thing: when you pay for a tracking number, the package RARELY gets lost, whereas items without tracking get lost all the time ...

YQQ

I believe that at least in Canada, once a piece of mail has been accepted by the post office or dropped in the mail box. that very piece of mail is now in the care of Her Majesty The Queen.
I also believe that ONLY the recipient has a legal right to receive it. This also EXCLUDES the sender, unless it is sent back to the sender.
How do I know this info?
a few years back i dropped a few envelopes in to the mailbox outside my regular Post office ( in the country boonies, where everyone knows everyone). However, one of them should have been a registered letter. It had No stamps on it yet.
so, in to the PO i went and asked the Post Mistress if she could retrieve it. She looked at me and said NO, in a very stern tone... the contents of the mail receptacle actually belong to the Queen!
She explained it that that is an old but still valid law which protects Canada Post from being sued for losing mail. You can NOT sue or name the Queen as defendant or co-defendant in legal proceedings !!!!!!!!!!!!! Period.
However, the mail was retrieved and posted registered....
was an interesting and very informative lesson. I do not think that this law has been changed as of today.

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>I never ship anything without a tracking number. Funny thing: when you pay for a tracking number, the package RARELY gets lost, whereas items without tracking get lost all the time ... >>



The item in question has tracking, but my understanding is that it was last scanned leaving a sorting facility.

LochNESS

In that case I would wait. Patience is difficult and yet, there have been times when months later a package arrives. I once bought something from a guy in Colorado and after 30 days it had not arrived so he refunded my money. Another two weeks later it showed up in the worst condition imaginable.

Another time I mailed a wedding gift to a friend cross-country, and after two months, it returned to my doorstep "wrong zip code."

If there is tracking, then it is probably in transit.

halfhunter

My understanding is that insurance bought thru the USPS is a useless waste of money as they do not insure coins and bullion except on Registered packages.

HH

wybrit

My understanding is that insurance bought thru the USPS is a useless waste of money as they do not insure coins and bullion except on Registered packages.

Not so. I had to file a claim for a lost shipment of coins at USPS a few years back and did get the full value of the transaction returned to me.

wybrit

I once bought something from a guy in Colorado and after 30 days it had not arrived so he refunded my money. Another two weeks later it showed up in the worst condition imaginable.

I hope that wasn't mine. Last year, one of my shipments went missing (it was fully insured and I refunded the buyer) - it was a PCGS MS65 1929 George V florin.

wybrit

Preview message option doesn't work anymore, am I the only one ???

It's not working for me either. I tried it using both Firefox and IE - no luck.

Also, the search function doesn't work well anymore.

ajaan

<< <i>My understanding is that insurance bought thru the USPS is a useless waste of money as they do not insure coins and bullion except on Registered packages. >>


Money is not insurable. Coins that have a value over face value are.

wybrit

It's way past your bedtime, ajaan.

CCC2010

The coin in question is worth $175 paid for via paypal gift as being one of his payment options.Did this because i saw he did prior transactions before and all his coins were sold out...Fellow reputable board members thanking him for a flawless transaction. So i said this guy is reliable...Nothing about insurance was mentioned and i assumed the seller would take responsibility just like everybody else here does to make sure they are covered and their buyers get their coins safely.
The item has tracking but has not since been updated since it left the sorting facility from his state 19 days ago for a first class mail within the US. From my personal experience that is unheared of. I have been to the post office to check my PO Box like 17 times literally but still no coin. I really do not want to wait for months for this coin to appear especially when i paid for it right away. Thus i mentioned to the seller to Please refund my money and Promised him the moment his coin shows up that i will send it back via USPS priority mail /Insured with delivery confirmation at My expense. He simply avoids the subject of a refund. He apologized that the coin did not reach my PO Box but that it is out of his hands...But his response that really surprised me is when he claimed his responsibility as a seller ends when he mailed the package with USPS.And the best he can do is make an inquiry from USPS customer service. What does that mean for me as a buyer? Say if he wrote the wrong zip code or sent this to another person by mistake.Or it got lost in the mail.... That i would be left holding the bag??? I could not imagine myself saying or doing this type of behavior to any of our fellow board members that i have had dealings with. My references speak for themselves.

So this thread is meant as an education for me and him and everybody else ....Learning from other peoples mistakes as they say...

satootoko

Not coin related, but several months ago I mailed six envelopes to individuals in Spain. All were returned to me undeliverable, over a period or almost 90 days, with the first one coming back a little over 60 days after mailing, and the last one 1 day short of 5 months after mailing!

In other words, patience is a real virtue when dealing with mail.

IrishMist

I recently received a coin from the US in 3 days!! Yet books purchased in the US through Amazon could take 2 months to deliver to me ( I am based in Ireland ).

I think that the buyer should have at least asked what the shipping options were. Conversely the seller should have given the buyer a range of shipping options to choose from.

Perhaps the best solution to the current situation is for the buyer to wait an extra week and if the coin doesn't show then the seller issues a $87.50 refund. This way the 'lesson' is shared.

Unknown

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Aethelred

NO posting while naked!!!!!!