How did I do on buying these ancients?

WestySteve

Hey guys,

I haven't bought an ancient coin for about 15 years, but I bought these last night. How do you think I did? PMs are appreciated.

First I saw this one...seemed like a bargain:

Cheap Date

So then I started looking at what else the seller had. And I didn't want to buy it, but it just seemed too nice (for the money) to walk away.

Couldn't leave it there

Steve

bronzemat

Both are heavily faked & I am not familiar with the seller. I also dont mess with greeks as much as romans.

Hopefully when you get them in hand you can take better photos.

WestySteve

I will. I'll probably send them off to a slabbing service, just so I'll feel better about it. The seller didn't have a bunch of them, and he had good feedback, so I felt comfortable. He wasn't selling any obvious fakes either. Lastly, most of his stuff wasn't that nice (i.e., high grade), which also gave me the feeling that he didn't deal in fakes. Now, all that being said, the seller himself could have been duped when he bought it. Hopefully not.

lordmarcovan

OK, I guess, maybe, if they're real. I am just getting started in Greeks myself, as you can see in my recent post.

That's a dang nice looking Gorgon if it's authentic.

I tend to steer clear of eBay for most pricier ancient stuff until I'm confident enough in my knowledge to take a chance. Unless the eBay seller is a known dealer who also sells on venues like VCoins. All of my newps just came from FORVM, and they've not only got an unconditional guarantee of authenticity but also, as I understand it, a 100% store credit buyback any time if I get tired of them later by having my tastes change. Plus they have their own forums which are almost as big as this site, so I've found another spot to hang out in cyberspace. (You might say I'm "drinking their Kool-Aid" in big gulps, haha.)

I hope you come out OK on those two. They're both very handsome and based on gut feeling alone (not experience) I think you did OK on the price if they're real (and neither sets off any red flags for me, though I'm a novice with Greek stuff, as mentioned.)

lordmarcovan

The good news is, at least "mariscalhurtado" isn't on this list.

The possible bad news is, there are plenty of those types here.

WestySteve

Geez, Louise! Thanks for the link. I didn't see my NEWP in the photos when I searched "Gorgon" on that fantastic website, so that's a relief.

However, the sheer number of entries scared the bejeesus out of me and made me re-think any more purchases, (except reputable sellers).

So two questions come to mind:

1. Would testing my coins for silver content be a good idea? Is there a way to do it that won't affect the coins value (significantly)? I mean, if there is no silver in it, then it's probably a fake, right?

2. As far as I know, the only slabbing services NGC, and ANACs. Are they pretty good at it?

lordmarcovan

I wouldn't know about testing the silver since I dunno what the standards were more than two thousand years ago.

NGC would probably bag 'em if they were fake, so send 'em off if you want them entombed, but it'll cost you something like 35 bucks a pop, and if they bag, then it's "So solly, Cholly". You chalk it up to an education, because by the time that turnaround happens, good luck getting money back from an international eBay seller. If on the other hand they grade, then good for you- I think you did all right.

Join up over at FORVM. That way I won't be the only semi-clueless newb there.

Bronzemat is over there (as "Mat"), and probably a few others who also post here.

I'll be spending a lot more time over there.

I like that they offer that 100% trade-in guarantee. That takes a lot of the potential sting out of newbie mistakes, and if my collecting changes gears later, I can send my stuff in to them to exchange for whatever else I might decide to collect in ancients.

For slabbing, I'll be sending the last five raw coins from my newly-completed Roman Twelve Caesars set off to them before long. I have a nice slab display box all ready for them. But then I'll be putting the brakes on the plastic game and will resume the traditional way of keeping one's ancient coins naked so one can fondle them and appreciate a little hands-on history.

lordmarcovan

Here, Steve.

Let's watch my "I'm a brand-new baby Greekling, so please be kind" thread, to see how they respond to a little newbie blood in the water.

FilthyBroke

Yeah, what was that hoard of fake Gorgons, the New York Hoard? It's been a few years ago, but I had one in ICG plastic and showed it to a reputable ancients dealer, who in turn asked a buddy of his and they both figured it to be from that hoard of fakes.

Not saying these are, just that you should check with someone who knows about them, and the tpg services don't always catch the fakes, either.

lordmarcovan

Hiya, FB. Longtimenosee.

Yes, he's right. Even NGC does not provide a 100% authenticity guarantee. They'd be fools to try it, in a field like this. At least they'll reject any known fakes, so you do get that extra layer of protection even if it doesn't come with an ironclad guarantee.

Best to stick with established dealers, I think, and steer clear of eBay for all but the cheapest stuff. You took a gamble here and I hope it pays off for you (at the prices you paid I would say it will have paid off nicely if those are proven authentic). If you're OK with the amount of money you just gambled, then you're OK.

Me, when I was starting out in Romans five years ago, I bought almost exclusively off VCoins, and only from a handful of dealers I trusted. I think it paid off in the long run, even if I paid pretty much full retail for most of my coins. Now I'll follow the same pattern with Greek stuff, and probably buy a lot from FORVM, who, though I've heard people call them pricey at times, are at least trustworthy, and again, they've got that 100% store credit trade-in guarantee which is a big deal for me.

Of course to give a fellow forum member their due, you've also got CIVITAS here, who also happens to be a dealer on VCoins. VCoins.com, if you haven't checked it out, is an online megamall for ancient coins and artifacts. You can get lost wandering around there, and it's fun to do so.

bronzemat

The hoard these coins are most likely from is the "black sea hoard". Which were some of the best fakes around. I got duped with the gorgon type myself from my favorite seller but I got a rebate at least.

CIVITAS

I generally avoid these issues because I have a hard time telling the difference between the fakes and the real ones from memory.

That being said, from the somewhat pixelated images, both coins look OK to me. I think the Mysia piece has an especially nice gorgon face.

lordmarcovan

Well, there's a ray of hope for you.

(Fingers crossed)

FilthyBroke

<< <i>Hiya, FB. Longtimenosee.

Yes, he's right. Even NGC does not provide a 100% authenticity guarantee. They'd be fools to try it, in a field like this. At least they'll reject any known fakes, so you do get that extra layer of protection even if it doesn't come with an ironclad guarantee.

Best to stick with established dealers, I think, and steer clear of eBay for all but the cheapest stuff. You took a gamble here and I hope it pays off for you (at the prices you paid I would say it will have paid off nicely if those are proven authentic). If you're OK with the amount of money you just gambled, then you're OK.

Me, when I was starting out in Romans five years ago, I bought almost exclusively off VCoins, and only from a handful of dealers I trusted. I think it paid off in the long run, even if I paid pretty much full retail for most of my coins. Now I'll follow the same pattern with Greek stuff, and probably buy a lot from FORVM, who, though I've heard people call them pricey at times, are at least trustworthy, and again, they've got that 100% store credit trade-in guarantee which is a big deal for me.

Of course to give a fellow forum member their due, you've also got CIVITAS here, who also happens to be a dealer on VCoins. VCoins.com, if you haven't checked it out, is an online megamall for ancient coins and artifacts. You can get lost wandering around there, and it's fun to do so. >>



What's up, Rob? It HAS been awhile, eh?

I'm with LordM on this, find a knowledgeable dealer for stuff like this, someone who will gladly assume accountability for his sales and someone who you don't mind asking for an opinion. Those gorgons are so close to the real thing that the color itself was what raised the flag on mine. There was a database on those, I'll see if I can remember where it was. Nothing more discouraging than getting stuck with a fake coin. It turned me off of Greek coins for a while.

But again, I'm not saying they are fake, just to keep up your guard when buying some of those, especially the gorgons.

WestySteve

You guys are the absolute best. I was just dabbling with this purchase. Not sure if I'll buy more for a while, just because I collect other things, but I do really like ancients. I'll definitely browse the dealer price lists ya'll recommend.

I wanted to re-iterate a question. These coins are supposed to be silver. Back in ancient times, I'm sure that the silver coins weren't pure silver, and I know that some issues were really just silvered bronze. But...if I test them for silver content and they come up with *some* silver content, doesn't that help validate them as genuine? (I guess I'm asking if the fakes out there are also made of silver.)

If they come back as zero silver content, I'll be sending them back....that is a test I can do quickly, before the feedback window expires.

Anyone have an idea what percentage of fake silver coins are, indeed, made of silver?

Thanks,

Steve

lordmarcovan

I'd guess that almost all of the die-struck fakes of purportedly silver types are, in fact, silver, though how well the alloys match up to ancient standards, I haven't a clue. Your typical cheap tourist fakes are usually not silver, but are as such easily detected. More deceptively dangerous struck fakes like the Black Sea Hoard types mentioned will likely much more closely match the metallic content of the ancient originals, and will not have the telltale edge seam from casting.

CIVITAS

Both genuine coins and high quality fakes will test positive for silver content. I'm not sure what purity for either.

WestySteve

Good info. I found more info in my sleuthing....brought on by paranoia.

From what I learned, the Black Sea Horde was comprised of Appollonia Pontika & Mesembria Diobols. My cool looking Gorgon coin is actually a Hemidrachm from another location. Hopefully, I can at least rule out the possibility of it being a Black Sea Horde coin from the size, weight, and markings, though it could still be a fake.

The other coin (Apollo issue) is exactly the right size, weight, and location for being a potential Black Sea Horde coin. So I'll be very suspicious of it.

Sheesh...it's amazing anyone buys any of these!

WestySteve

OK, I'm back.

I got the coins. I was paranoid enough about these that I took them to my local coin shop and had them tested for silver content. They had to scratch the edge of them to create a little silver dust, but I thought it was worth it to me to feel good about the coins. FWIW, the guy who ran the test told me that the coins must be at least as fine as sterling silver. Hopefully, the scratches should retone over the next couple of decades that I own them. Here they are: Feedback (good or bad) is appreciated. Steve

bronzemat

Fakes can be made of silver. I still don't think they are real but I could be wrong.

Dabigkahuna

Here is hemidrachm I purchased recently. I will be sending it in to be holdered as soon as I have a submission put together. Also one of my favorite designs.

Pokermandude

Here's mine, purchased at a show earlier this year. First pic is the sellers. 2nd and 3rd are my pics and they look more like how it does in hand.

WestySteve

Cool pix. They are a neat variety. Do you think it hurts the value significantly to scratch the edge of one of these to test the metal? My thought was that most of these coins were cleaned anyway to knock the debris and detritus off them after they were dug out of the ground...not like cleaning a proof modern coin or something.

WheatieFan

<< <i>Do you think it hurts the value significantly to scratch the edge of one of these to test the metal? >>



I can't answer that, but I'd question why you are testing the content.

If you think you are doing a definitive test with only two answers where silver=authentic and not-silver=fake then you are mistaken.

The better fakes are made with silver. The scary-good fakes are even made with silver reclaimed from ancient coins.

Good clues as to authenticity would be the weight, fabric, and die characteristics. These don't require damaging the coin.

I'm no expert, but if I had questions I would either spend a long time reading the FORVM messageboards or post pictures there for a critique. Pictures of the edge will help also.

-wheatiefan

STLNATS

Do you think it hurts the value significantly to scratch the edge of one of these to test the metal?

Certainly didn't help and not at all definitive. I think the recommendation to share with the Forum board is very good. Nice cadre of experienced & knowledgable folks. These coins are always red flags to me since I still remember that the "black sea hoard" of fakes was a huge deal when it came out. If I recall correctly, the fakes were in silver and I'm sure there are plenty of them still floating around which I think is why the series is relatively inexpensive. Someone at the Forum site should be able to give you a good feel of what to look for on this series and offer an informed opinion of whether these are good or not.

PS, here's a link to a discussion of the fake black sea hoard coins. I don't think it's complete, but should be a good start for you to id known fakes.....

http://www.snible.org/coins/black_sea_hoard.html

linky