All Time Ravens Set

thehallmark

Just wanted to get a conversation started, since someone has requested some additions to this set this week. Hopefully the conversation stays polite and productive and includes those that intend to stay engaged in this particular set registry for the long haul.

Here are the suggested entries:

1. TONY SIRAGUSA - 1991 STADIUM CLUB #208
2. ROB BURNETT - 1991 UPPER DECK #503
3. DERRICK MASON - 1997 SP AUTHENTIC #191
4. DUANE STARKS - 1998 TOPPS CHROME #2
5. HALOTI NGATA - 2006 SP AUTHENTIC #104

Here is my opinion on each of these new adds:

1. TONY SIRAGUSA - 1991 STADIUM CLUB #208 --- Great personality, solid space-eating DT, and Super Bowl champ but I don't think Goose belongs. Tough decision, but I'd leave him out. Kelly Gregg is a more productive player at the same position for a longer period of time as a Raven and he left w/ the second most tackles in team history. I can't see including Siragusa before Gregg, and I'm not sure either belongs. Love the suggestion though!!

2. ROB BURNETT - 1991 UPPER DECK #503 --- My initial reaction to this suggestion was totally negative but I've come around after thinking about it while. Burnett was with Cleveland and passively became a Raven when the franchise was moved, just like Stover. He was only a pro-bowler once but he was one of the best players on the team for a very long tenure and THAT is exactly the kind of thing we are trying to capture in these All Time team sets. I would vote for Burnett to get in, but the appropriate card for inclusion is the 1991 Stadium Club #201.

3. DERRICK MASON - 1997 SP AUTHENTIC #191 --- Much like Siragusa, I feel as though Derrick Mason is a good player and very borderline as an All Time Raven, but ultimately not worthy of inclusion in this set. Similar overall production in 8 seasons w/ Tennessee as he had in 6 seasons with Baltimore. It feels like he was a great receiver because all the Ravens WRs that preceded him were sub-mediocre talents. Mason had his great moments (catching balls at the end of the season w/ one arm broken) but he also had his share of problems in crunch time. I'll vote to leave him out but it's not unreasonable to want him included.

4. DUANE STARKS - 1998 TOPPS CHROME #2 --- I thought Chris McAlister was a good inclusion to the set and the next best CB in the franchise is Samari Rolle, so I'd leave Starks out of this set and I don't think it's a difficult decision. Starks was a Raven for 4 good seasons and complimented McAlister very nicely, but to me that's not enough of a resume as a Raven. I think both he and Samari fall short of inclusion. Hopefully Lardarius Webb stays healthy and passes them all up!

5. HALOTI NGATA - 2006 SP AUTHENTIC #104 --- I think as long as Ngata has one more B+ year for Baltimore, he belongs in the set. He is frequently mentioned amongst the best players in the league at any position and he's got a handful of All Pro nods to back those opinions up. I was going to nominate Ngata for this set one this season was over to be safe, so I do want him included. However, the SP Authentic is the wrong card as it is numbered to 750. The correct card for inclusion is the regular version of the 2006 Topps Chrome #176. That card is a base set card and it is not short printed, but it is mega glossy so it seems like a refractor. There is also a "Special Edition" variation to this card that should NOT be allowed inclusion.

Raven's fans and collectors, your comments and suggestions are encouraged so please participate and don't forget to vote this week!! (Check your email if you are registered in this set!!)

FavreFan1971

I don't collect the set but I would vote no across the board. Maybe in two or three years #5 gets in but not yet.

thehallmark

Farvefan,

I voted no on all, but for varying reasons. Why would you vote no on these potential additions?

Also, you mentioned Ngata's inclusion is pretty much just a matter of time. In your opinion, what is the number of productive years a player should have on the team to be considered for inclusion?

recbball

I voted no on all. I think they all don't measure up to the players in there already with the exception of Ngata.
I would have voted yes for Ngata, but the card suggested, 2006 SP AUTHENTIC #104, only has a serial # going up to 750. So that card couldn't be used in other sets.
I did vote yes for Derrick Mason, but with the Titans not the Ravens.

FavreFan1971

<< <i>Farvefan,

I voted no on all, but for varying reasons. Why would you vote no on these potential additions?

Also, you mentioned Ngata's inclusion is pretty much just a matter of time. In your opinion, what is the number of productive years a player should have on the team to be considered for inclusion? >>



I collect the Packer All Time set and it get littered with additions of the Grood players. Yes the Grood. The better than Good but not Great.

1. TONY SIRAGUSA - Not one pro bowl. Hey may have been a solid interior lineman but not even one pro bowl. You cant get on any All Time Set unless you make a Pro Bowl.

2. ROB BURNETT - Only played with the Ravens for six years. No pro bowls and six mediocre seasons is not good enough to make this set.

3. DERRICK MASON - His best seasons were in Tenn. He had four good seasons with Baltimore but he was barely a top 20 WR during that time. No pro bowls either. I think I see a trend.

4. DUANE STARKS - Four years on a team without any pro bowls. No way. Now if he was on the team for four years, gets defensive player of they year and makes three pro bowls and All Pro two years, well that is a different four years. But no.

5. HALOTI NGATA - The kid is close. Wrong card submitted too.

I like to see seven years minimum to get on an all time team. But as I said above if you light it up for four years and move on (Marshall Faulk) you deserve to be on the set. Awards, longevity are needed to get on this set

jradke4

dont forget Faulk didnt walk he was traded.

thehallmark

Mason's a tough one for me. He's by far the franchise's best receiver so far, but his ceiling was "good" and it didn't seem like anyone ever had to scheme against him. I vote no on Mason mostly because I think six years aren't enough for a guy who split his career pretty evenly on two teams and was never great. If he had eight productive years as a Raven, that would probably have been enough to change my vote.

In terms of his production on TEN/BAL, his best year was 2003 in TEN but he has a nice slow decline after that. Really good career and I was glad he was on the team. Wish he had been the #2 receiver, though.

Year Age Tm G GS Rec Yds Y/R TD R/G Y/G
2000 26 TEN 16 11 63 895 14.2 5 3.9 55.9
2001 27 TEN 15 15 73 1128 15.5 9 4.9 75.2
2002 28 TEN 14 14 79 1012 12.8 5 5.6 72.3
2003 29 TEN 16 16 95 1303 13.7 8 5.9 81.4
2004 30 TEN 16 16 96 1168 12.2 7 6 73
2005 31 BAL 16 16 86 1073 12.5 3 5.4 67.1
2006 32 BAL 16 15 68 750 11 2 4.3 46.9
2007 33 BAL 16 16 103 1087 10.6 5 6.4 67.9
2008 34 BAL 16 16 80 1037 13 5 5 64.8
2009 35 BAL 16 16 73 1028 14.1 7 4.6 64.3
2010 36 BAL 16 15 61 802 13.1 7 3.8 50.1

jradke4

i think the bigger question is have the ravens been around long enough to warrant an all-time type set yet? maybe, maybe not. the best answer might be to start some type of fan based set. i much prefer to keep the all-time sets truely all time. that said many now have been watered down a bit with some strange additions. so far the Packers set isnt that bad. there were some additions that were questionable but even those players have been considered at some point to be potential HOFer's or have set some pretty impressive records while on the team...well not Max McGee at least. Dillion and Howton the most recent questionable additions were some pretty good to dominant players in their era. we have been lucky to keep out some other lately that were/are even less deserving then Max McGee. right now we have 11 players that wont be HOFers. one is the team leader in rushing and the other is the close to the team leader in WR. sterling sharpe was one of the most dominant wrs in the league until his neck injury and was on a HOF track. a few others from the 60's teams have garnered HOF attention but might not make but were key to the success of arguably the most dominant stretch a team in the nfl has ever had.

thehallmark

The set is All Time Ravens, not All Time NFL Great Ravens...so I think the length of time the franchise has been around isn't an issue. The Packers registry sets are going to be deeper and contain many more historically relevant NFL players, of course. But both sets should exist.

We've been back and forth about this in other threads but the All Time team sets are exactly the right sets for fans to include those players who made a big difference in the franchise but maybe not in the league at large. That's what makes these sets fun and challenging to participate in! Eventually, every NFL team will have four PSA registries:

1) NFL HOF <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of franchise players that have been inducted into the NFL HOF
2) All Time <team> Pro Bowlers set: Comprised of of key RCs of franchise players that were voted into a pro bowl while a member of the franchise
3) Team HOF/Ring of Honor/Retired numbers/etc <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of players who have been given the aforementioned honor by the franchise
4) All Time <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of franchise players that have been voted in by registry members

This is how the registry is evolving and it's a good thing. Once all of these set registries exist for each franchise, that should diffuse some of the tension when debating the merits of players' inclusion into the All Time team sets.

jradke4

<< <i>The set is All Time Ravens, not All Time NFL Great Ravens...so I think the length of time the franchise has been around isn't an issue. The Packers registry sets are going to be deeper and contain many more historically relevant NFL players, of course. But both sets should exist.

We've been back and forth about this in other threads but the All Time team sets are exactly the right sets for fans to include those players who made a big difference in the franchise but maybe not in the league at large. That's what makes these sets fun and challenging to participate in! Eventually, every NFL team will have four PSA registries:

1) NFL HOF <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of franchise players that have been inducted into the NFL HOF
2) All Time <team> Pro Bowlers set: Comprised of of key RCs of franchise players that were voted into a pro bowl while a member of the franchise
3) Team HOF/Ring of Honor/Retired numbers/etc <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of players who have been given the aforementioned honor by the franchise
4) All Time <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of franchise players that have been voted in by registry members

This is how the registry is evolving and it's a good thing. Once all of these set registries exist for each franchise, that should diffuse some of the tension when debating the merits of players' inclusion into the All Time team sets. >>



well it seems just when you think you have everything figured out things change. sometimes good and sometimes bad. at one point the all time team sets were one thing now they are something else. to be honest i think the term all time needs to be removed from the #4 list. it might better be described as most popular player team set. for me an all time team is rather exclusive than inclusive. i hope the pro bowlers team will be kept to those that were voted in only. not those that were moved up to the game due to injury. that tends to be the problem with some of these sets. some are clear and locked in. the others are at the whim of the collectors...but more important only the collectors that vote. to be included you need 50% of those that vote, not 50% of those that collect the set. if you have a small number of collectors of a set and some dont vote much and others that do vote its only a small number that really end up picking the members of the set. think of it this way say there are only 8 people that collect a set. only 4 might be regular voters. now if two happen to be away when a vote takes place and they dont get the email, then it could be only 2 people that pick if a player/card is in that set.

the biggest issues or debates stem from team fans vs registry members. fans see some players differently then others. in some cases the registry members have a good sense of nfl history compared to the fans. in other cases the fans have a better case. its the fun part of the debates. the trick is not to take any of this personal. on the registry you are free to make any set you like and request that it be added. some people only want sets that the masses will collect, other dont give a flying rip. others are in between. for example i have two sets that i am working on that not many others are. one is my favre ticket collection the other is autos of all the players that have caught at TD from him. while i have the ticket collection here as a set i havent requested and more than likely never will the auto set. to me while both are relatively low on the interest side, the ticket collection is more interesting from a historical point of view than the auto set. more than likely someone will break the TD record a lot sooner than the games started streak.

Bronkota

<< <i>The set is All Time Ravens, not All Time NFL Great Ravens...so I think the length of time the franchise has been around isn't an issue. The Packers registry sets are going to be deeper and contain many more historically relevant NFL players, of course. But both sets should exist.

We've been back and forth about this in other threads but the All Time team sets are exactly the right sets for fans to include those players who made a big difference in the franchise but maybe not in the league at large. That's what makes these sets fun and challenging to participate in! Eventually, every NFL team will have four PSA registries:

1) NFL HOF <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of franchise players that have been inducted into the NFL HOF
2) All Time <team> Pro Bowlers set: Comprised of of key RCs of franchise players that were voted into a pro bowl while a member of the franchise
3) Team HOF/Ring of Honor/Retired numbers/etc <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of players who have been given the aforementioned honor by the franchise
4) All Time <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of franchise players that have been voted in by registry members

This is how the registry is evolving and it's a good thing. Once all of these set registries exist for each franchise, that should diffuse some of the tension when debating the merits of players' inclusion into the All Time team sets. >>



Great post! My employers have beat me into thinking change is good . will see.

thehallmark

<< <i>

<< <i>The set is All Time Ravens, not All Time NFL Great Ravens...so I think the length of time the franchise has been around isn't an issue. The Packers registry sets are going to be deeper and contain many more historically relevant NFL players, of course. But both sets should exist.

We've been back and forth about this in other threads but the All Time team sets are exactly the right sets for fans to include those players who made a big difference in the franchise but maybe not in the league at large. That's what makes these sets fun and challenging to participate in! Eventually, every NFL team will have four PSA registries:

1) NFL HOF <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of franchise players that have been inducted into the NFL HOF
2) All Time <team> Pro Bowlers set: Comprised of of key RCs of franchise players that were voted into a pro bowl while a member of the franchise
3) Team HOF/Ring of Honor/Retired numbers/etc <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of players who have been given the aforementioned honor by the franchise
4) All Time <team> set: Comprised of key RCs of franchise players that have been voted in by registry members

This is how the registry is evolving and it's a good thing. Once all of these set registries exist for each franchise, that should diffuse some of the tension when debating the merits of players' inclusion into the All Time team sets. >>



well it seems just when you think you have everything figured out things change. sometimes good and sometimes bad. at one point the all time team sets were one thing now they are something else. to be honest i think the term all time needs to be removed from the #4 list. it might better be described as most popular player team set. for me an all time team is rather exclusive than inclusive. i hope the pro bowlers team will be kept to those that were voted in only. not those that were moved up to the game due to injury. that tends to be the problem with some of these sets. some are clear and locked in. the others are at the whim of the collectors...but more important only the collectors that vote. to be included you need 50% of those that vote, not 50% of those that collect the set. if you have a small number of collectors of a set and some dont vote much and others that do vote its only a small number that really end up picking the members of the set. think of it this way say there are only 8 people that collect a set. only 4 might be regular voters. now if two happen to be away when a vote takes place and they dont get the email, then it could be only 2 people that pick if a player/card is in that set.

the biggest issues or debates stem from team fans vs registry members. fans see some players differently then others. in some cases the registry members have a good sense of nfl history compared to the fans. in other cases the fans have a better case. its the fun part of the debates. the trick is not to take any of this personal. on the registry you are free to make any set you like and request that it be added. some people only want sets that the masses will collect, other dont give a flying rip. others are in between. for example i have two sets that i am working on that not many others are. one is my favre ticket collection the other is autos of all the players that have caught at TD from him. while i have the ticket collection here as a set i havent requested and more than likely never will the auto set. to me while both are relatively low on the interest side, the ticket collection is more interesting from a historical point of view than the auto set. more than likely someone will break the TD record a lot sooner than the games started streak. >>



I agree with you that the lack of definition of some of these sets is what injects most of the frustration into these debates. I'm just hoping in a couple of years when loads more registry sets exist and the vague definitions are no longer such a huge factor, there will be enough themes out there to appease everyone.

Love your Favre ticket collection, btw! Such a diverse hobby we have here.

ABellPharmD

I don't collect FB, but I am a Ravens season ticket holder and thought I'd add my 2 cents for conversations sake. The Ravens simply haven't been around long enough to warrant many players on this list. In fact, the Ravens themselves don't know how to contain themselves (explain to me how Ernest Byner made the Ring of Honor for the Baltimore Ravens). The current list on the set registry is pretty solid though. Ngata is probably the next player in line to make the set registry if he can continue to perform the way he has. Another 2 solid years and/or another broken Roethlisberger nose and he makes the list.

NickM

WRT Ngata, does his Topps Chrome outsell his Absolute Memorabilia (#/999), Bowman Chrome, Bowman Sterling, Donruss Threads (#/999), Finest, Hot Prospects (#/1150), Leaf Certified (#/1000), SPx (#/1299), Topps Turkey Red (unnumbered SP), and any other valuable RCs I may have overlooked?

BTW, jradke, Howton ought to be a NFL HOFer (he retired as the all-time leader in several receiving categories, breaking Hutson's records), so the Packers HOF is a must for him.

Nick

recbball

According to Beckett Ngata has 37 RCs
Of those RCs, 20 of them have a serial #
Of those 20, 6 have a number of 999 or greater with no autograph:
2006 Absolute Memorabilia #212
2006 Donruss Threads #187
2006 Donruss Threads Retail Rookies #187
2006 Hot Prospects #102
2006 Leaf Certified Materials #182
2006 SPx #91

Then again when PSA puts out a poll the majority may pick Topps Chrome.
Too many choices to speculate on which one will be chosen.

thehallmark

It's going to be the Topps Chrome for Ngata for this set. If your a registry participant, you'll see an email towards the end of this season.

I have some cards for sale for anyone who needs to fill in slots in this set. All prices include shipping cost. Scans available. If interested, please PM me.

1990 Score Matt Stover RC #B1 PSA 9 -- $15
1991 Stadium Club Rob Burnett RC #201 PSA 10 -- $15
1991 Stadium Club Tony Siragusa RC #208 PSA 10 -- $15
1993 Pro Set Michael McCrary RC #417 PSA 10 -- $40
1999 SP Authentic Chris McAlister RC #117 PSA 9 -- $15
2000 SP Authentic Jamal Lewis RC #132 PSA 10 -- $80
2001 Topps Chrome Todd Heap RC #293 PSA 10 -- $125
2003 Topps Chrome Terrell Suggs RC #169 PSA 8.5 -- $10
2006 Topps Chrome Elvis Dumervil RC #173 PSA 10 -- $20
2006 Topps Chrome Haloti Ngata RC #176 PSA 10 -- $30