Dumbing down of the hobby?

DHeath

Not many years ago, if a collector was interested in purchasing a particular coin they might view auction lots, view auction catalogs, speak with dealers and experts, attend grading seminars, learn the nuances of the particular date and MM, etc. This information would inform a calculus regarding what to pay for a coin, who to buy iy from, etc. Now that third and fourth party grading is prominent, is collector expertise as valuable as it was in the past? Knowledge once represented an enormous advantage--a sort of sweat equity. Has that advantage evaporated? Is the hobby now fully mature? Have we invited the ignorant to invest?

DrBuster

This pretty, me likey, take mongo's money.

But seriously, maybe moreso than not. Although even with the vast tools available now, folks that don't know how to research generally don't learn how to research no matter how hard they want and try to be taught. Same on the flipside, some folks can actually teach, some can go over a 1-2-3 knocklist and that's it.

RYK

Now that third and fourth party grading is prominent, is collector expertise as valuable as it was in the past?

All of these grades and opinions anchor the coin to a certain value. It takes knowledge and experience to know when to cut the anchors loose and increase or decrease the appraisal of the coin in question.

I would argue that expertise is even more valuable than before. Because prices are higher, the cost of making a mistake is greater.

The ignorant have always been investing in coins, and, if anything, are better protected by the advent of the TPG. Ultimately, no matter how hard our government tries to do so, we cannot protect people from themselves, especially when greed is a factor.

Finally, the CAC or PCGS does not come to your house and sit down with you and tell you what to collect and why you will enjoy it. Serious collectors read books, study coins and now have resources like this forum, CoinFacts, online Photograde, auction archives, etc. for a depth of knowledge that was not possible for the armchair collector of previous generations.

bigjpst

I look at it as helping keep the under-informed and beginning collector from getting burned too badly. Looking at tons of coins graded somewhat consistently has helped many learn how to grade coins for themselves(myself included). I'm not saying it didn't allow the ignorant into the hobby, but there are still many things about the coin market that can make an experienced collector stand out. If someone doesn't want to learn about coins and buy, let them. Me, I'll try and learn as much as I can everyday, and use all the tools available.

MrEureka

Has that advantage evaporated?

No, but it has narrowed. More people, more action, more information, more money, slimmer pickings. Same as in many other industries. It's a trade-off. Get used to it, because the trend will continue for the foreseeable future.

lasvegasteddy

just as a moth is attracted to the campfire
the more devout passion filled will carry on such torch in numismatics you reference

has the advantage vanished ?...i'd think not...the more you get in...the more you get out apply
is the hobby fully mature ?...well it's grown in ways it needed to...the internet brought forth growth much appreciated...there's always room for more
have we invited the ignorant to invest ?...perhaps but this has and always will happen

RedTiger

The op overlooks one big factor, the level of knowledge and sophistication needed just to get in the door. At my local coin club, which averages 30 to 40 people per meeting, maybe 20% actively collect certified coins. None actively seek CAC stickered coins. Part of reason is the skew towards low value raw coins, part is ignorance. They don't know, they don't keep tabs on the latest news. More than half would be basically clueless, unable to tell you what CAC is, or if shown a coin in a slab with a sticker, what it might mean. These are active collectors going to monthly coin club meetings. These might well be above average in knowledge as compared to the entire base of active collectors.

The second point, is that while TPGs and stickers have divided coins into groups, the dollar losses tend to be bigger than ever for the novice coin investor. Why is that? Because the dollar amounts are higher than ever, and the coin investor still often thinks in terms of fungible items such as shares of stock or ounces of a commodity, where each share, each ounce is basically the same. Even folks on this forum, sometimes slip into such thoughts. If this is true, that the losses are bigger than ever, than the other side is that the dollar gains by the smart money are bigger than ever. So no, the hobby is not dumbing down, the level of knowledge and sophistication needed is higher than ever for those that want to play with the big boys. I would say that grading skill is as valuable as ever.

Again, start with the novice. He/she comes to my coin club, and will never hear a peep about stickers. How does he/she get in the game? By asking a dealer? Which dealer? Plenty of dealers are anti-sticker, a few are still anti-slab. By asking a friend? Like a new friend he/she makes at the club, which is mostly raw collectors and sticker clueless people. Folks on the forum often take for granted how much information and expertise they already have. Those that read the forum regularly are way up the food chain in terms of the latest news, latest developments. That person in the old days that did all that was outlined in the op, was way up the food chain too. So no, the hobby is not dumbing down.

TwoSides2aCoin

A great society is an enlightened society. Keeping the ignorant at bay is safer with PayPow.

LindeDad

Not many years ago some collectors were buying what the liked when they found it with little or no research.
Still are with only a few making the effort to do in dept research. BTW third party grading came about so this could happen this way because a few with the knowledge were miss using it to scam the majority who wanted to enjoy a hobby.
There will always be a place for the cheery pickers or variety collectors in the hobby but there will always be more collectors who just like the look of a coin, or like a series and want to make a set by date and mint.
I guess what I want to say is that there are always going to be a lot more casual collectors than deep study types in the hobby.

TURBO

TomB

Dumbing down the hobby? No. If you had ever seen the scores of collections that have been brought to me over the years from these old collectors of the 1950s through 1970s, before the advent of the TPGs, digital images, constant electronic contact, computers and the internet then you would see just how badly uninformed these buyers were with respect to surfaces, to manipulation and to price value.

Buzzybest

Hopefully on this subject,I have a numismatic grading question. I have to decide if I should send in for CAC a PCGS Secure Plus graded 65DMPL Morgan. Does it make sense to have a CAC bean added to a Secure Plus label?

TomB

If I recall correctly, the PCGS Secure Plus system is more or less a laser mapping of the surfaces of the coin so that it may be recognized in the future. Perhaps, too, the coin is "sniffed", though I do not know if that is included in the service. This is entirely different from sending the coin out to be inspected for a sticker.

Buzzybest

<< <i>Dumbing down the hobby? No. If you had ever seen the scores of collections that have been brought to me over the years from these old collectors of the 1950s through 1970s, before the advent of the TPGs, digital images, constant electronic contact, computers and the internet then you would see just how badly uninformed these buyers were with respect to surfaces, to manipulation and to price value. >>



Ty for your opinion on the CAC sticker.
I have recently witnessed what you're referring to above on a visit to my LCS while waiting to be served. A middle aged couple came in to sell an album of circulated Morgans,and the dealer was offering $25 each for almost all of them. The husband walks over to the showcase and exclaims "But you're selling the same coin for $300!". Of course,he was looking at a holdered Morgan in MS. Funny.

Lakesammman

Perhaps, but it's never been easier than the current era to acquire a lot of knowledge in a very short period of time before making a purchase.

BryceM

Information is key to being successful in any endeavor. If you want it, it's easier to find now than ever before. I'm in a rural area with no coin shops within 100 miles. There are some casual collectors of junk and one or two people who have sets of random-quality Lincolns, Washies, and so forth. I recently went to the estate sale of a guy that had dozens of completed Whitmans from circulation finds. They sold for far above melt even though they had very little numismatic value. Joe six-pack is alive and well here. I've never seen a slabbed coin in my town other than the ones I have in the SDB.

The casual collectors in this area are probably no more or less ignorant than they ever were. Most of them don't get too excited about the history or the significance of rare pieces. The difference is that collectors who seek information can easily find it now, even way out here in the sticks. There is no way I could collect at my current level without the Internet. Without out it, my own level of expertise (what there is) would be much lower.

Overall I see the OP's comments as pertaining to two separate areas. The first is numismatic knowledge in general and the second is the ability to establish a coin's fair value. The two are related in the sense that the person with more knowledge will generally be better equiped to make good decisions. The two are not universally co-existant though. A coin's value is easier for an intermediate-level collector to establish now than it was in the past, but I think it's pretty clear that most coins are not fungible in any real sense. The real dogs and the real gems will be best understood by a select group.

MidLifeCrisis

<< <i>Now that third and fourth party grading is prominent, is collector expertise as valuable as it was in the past?

All of these grades and opinions anchor the coin to a certain value. It takes knowledge and experience to know when to cut the anchors loose and increase or decrease the appraisal of the coin in question.

I would argue that expertise is even more valuable than before. Because prices are higher, the cost of making a mistake is greater.

The ignorant have always been investing in coins, and, if anything, are better protected by the advent of the TPG. Ultimately, no matter how hard our government tries to do so, we cannot protect people from themselves, especially when greed is a factor.

Finally, the CAC or PCGS does not come to your house and sit down with you and tell you what to collect and why you will enjoy it. Serious collectors read books, study coins and now have resources like this forum, CoinFacts, online Photograde, auction archives, etc. for a depth of knowledge that was not possible for the armchair collector of previous generations. >>


I agree with RYK on this issue.

braddick

DHeath

the TPGs, digital images, constant electronic contact, computers and the internet

TomB, I agree with this part of your response. I think the TPGs have done a good bit to educate, particularly through sites such as this one. They have also lowered the informational requirement for coin buyers. I suppose those forces might neutralize one another, although both likely help the hobby.