<< <i>So it's ok to store Trueviews on Photobucket, enabling you to post them to threads, but NOT be able to store them on your own hosted site. >>
Posting one or two TrueViews of something you own on a random chat thread here or there is different than doing it en masse on a dedicated website.
So you're saying it's totally OK with you if, say, someone created their own "robec informational site" using all of your pics without asking?
(Side note- you have some very nice coins on your site. Congrats.) >>
Not at all. I'm trying to clarify if it is "legal" to store the TrueViews on a site like mine.
The main reason I went to hosting my site was so I could post photos (mine and my TrueViews) to message boards such as this without having the images watered down the way Photobucket does.
These have to be stored someplace right?
Thank you for your side note. >>
PCGS makes TrueViews available online via the http://images.pcgs.com server so, theoretically, you shouldn't need separate storage for TrueViews. >>
Do you honestly think everyone that posts a TrueView goes to the pcgs server rather than upload to an image hosting site? Maybe I am the only one that uploaded TV's to a site like Photobucket, I don't know. >>
I think many people upload TrueViews images to image hosting sites; however I was responding to your question "These have to be stored someplace right?" So while many people may want to post TrueViews to an image hosting site and it may be more convenient, it's not strictly necessary.
<< <i>So it's ok to store Trueviews on Photobucket, enabling you to post them to threads, but NOT be able to store them on your own hosted site. >>
I think you can post or host them wherever you want if you were the one who submitted the coins and/or you are the one who currently owns the coins. What you cannot do is grant a third party permission to use the images on their site. Copyright for the images stays with PCGS, and they are the sole entity to grant right for use.
Think of it as if you took your kids to JC Penney and had portraits taken of them. You get the images and you can hang them wherever you want, but you can't take photos down to Kinkos and have additional prints made, nor can they be used by a third party for a commercial enterprise. If you want to give a copy to Grandma to hang on her "100 Favorite Grandkids" wall, you have to buy it from the photographer.
Sean Reynolds >>
Yeah.....better go buy some extras for the grandparents. Not like the prices aren't out of line, and not like folks don't have scanners and digitally share the pictures with those in their family circle that way.
Sean - not getting on you at all by quoting you.....I have no disagreement with what you said, just adding on that, given modern technology, prices, people's ways doing things, etc, that anyone going 100% "by the rules" is likely "lying, stupid, absurdly rich, naive, etc etc etc". Note, I said 100% of the time. That means, I do believe, that you can't get said picture from a professional, and then scan/digitize it to share, ask opinions, and go back and purchase to send to the person(s) you shared with....if going by the letter of the law....unless you have express permission to do so.
This whole thing has gotten, imho, out of hand, and too many people are being polarized by it by a few folks. To me, I could honestly not care less than I already do. I have some trueviews, that I paid for, but I don't create websites....so it doesn't impact me. I do think the law around this, and I know it will upset a vocal few, is not a good law, however, in the way it is written and how some wish to enforce it. >>
Bochi, I see your point, but I believe that it is exactly because copyrights are so easily circumvented by today's technology that it is important for companies like PCGS to exercise those rights whenever possible. The fact that you can torrent just about any television show imaginable doesn't mean networks should stop submitting copyright claims on infringing YouTube videos.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i> I think many people upload TrueViews images to image hosting sites; however I was responding to your question "These have to be stored someplace right?" So while many people may want to post TrueViews to an image hosting site and it may be more convenient, it's not strictly necessary. >>
I can think of a reason PCGS wants to retain photographic control of their work.
Say an unscrupulous competitor gets a hold of a Trueview photo and maybe something was just not quite right about the photo. The competitor sells their own photography against this photo and profits from it while at the same time blasting the quality of the photo and casting doubt about PCGS at the same time. Standards and accepted practices change over time and what might be considered far fetched today might not be so in a few years.
Stranger things have happened.
A photographer retains ownership and rights to his/her work. Unless rights are released in writing. Might be that it is a policy in the making and under review.
<< <i>If Don/PCGS wanted us to not be in the dark, they would have told use what is an allowable use is by now. >>
Not exactly. It's in their best interest to not say anything until all gray areas and questions, some of which are still coming up in these threads, have been resolved to their satisfaction, and they can make one clearly understood statement that covers it all. A response that partially answers something or raises further questions or issues only makes matters worse. Having potential customers feel as though they're being kept in the dark about what they can and cannot do with something they buy isn't a great idea, and I assume that a rigorous list of rules, probably with examples that cite these rules, will be forthcoming when they are ready.
The PCGS submission form is a legal document that is agreed to when coins are submitted. Section 11 of that form states:
11. In the ordinary course of its grading operations, PCGS (i) compiles data regarding each coin submitted for grading, including, but not limited to, data relating to the identity, minting, condition and grade of the coin (the “Data”); and (ii) may take, or have taken, one or more digital or other types of photographs, images or reproductions of each such coin (collectively, the “Images”). In consideration for the grading services being provided by PCGS, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting, hereby authorizes PCGS (i) to compile and maintain such Data with respect to each coin submitted hereunder for grading; and (ii) to take, or cause to be taken, one or more Images of each such coin, and further agrees that PCGS will be the owner of such Data and all such Images and that PCGS may use and exploit such Data and the Images for commercial and any other purposes, as PCGS in its sole discretion deems appropriate, including, but not limited to, the publication and republication or reproduction in or on any media, of such Data and Images. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, Customer, on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting with respect to this agreement, unconditionally and irrevocably transfers, conveys and assigns to PCGS any and all current and any hereafter acquired rights, title and interests (including, without limitation, rights in copyright, patent, trade secret and trademark) that Customer or any such third party may have in or to the Data and the Images (on whatever media or in whatever form such Images may be reproduced or published).
TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit.
Any photograph that is paid for is considered to be a "work for hire" and copyright transfers to the person who paid for the photograph to be taken unless the photographer explicitly reserves copyright.
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
Don, thanks for posting a clarification.
A question I have is whether the right to use a TrueView transfers to the new owner when the coin is sold?
<< <i>TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
Don, thanks for posting a clarification.
A question I have is whether the right to use a TrueView transfers to the new owner when the coin is sold? >>
Don's post says you can't transfer the image to anyone else so I read that as a "no".
<< <i>TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
Don, thanks for posting a clarification.
A question I have is whether the right to use a TrueView transfers to the new owner when the coin is sold? >>
Don's post says you can't transfer the image to anyone else so I read that as a "no". >>
I think the question is more of whether PCGS will transfer the license to the coin's future owner, not that a TrueView purchaser would sub-license it to a subsequent owner.
It is a valid question for purchasers of PCGS slabbed coins with existing TrueViews. Without this transfer, you could not create a website with TrueViews of coins you own now using TrueVIews purchased by others.
Since the service is for the "coin's owner," a related and valid question would be whether a TrueView purchaser retains a license to the TrueView after selling the coin, or if the license terminates when the TrueView purchaser no longer owns the coin.
Back in the early days of True-View, I remember PCGS being very specific about the image "belonging" to the purchaser, and NOT the subsequent buyer. Never seemed to matter to me, as the images were easily copied and saved, and you could always "de-PCGS-ify" the images by cutting out the coins and pasting them onto a white background which I prefer.
Nowadays, the service seems to be just too expensive, especially since you essentially give up artistic control. Personally, a photo taken by me in the slab is often preferred. A photo taken by Todd Pollack is even better.
<< <i>Upon full and complete payment of this invoice, all rights in perpetuity including the copyright to the photo described herein are transferred to CUSTOMER_NAME, his heirs and assignees. Seller warrants that he owns the all rights and copyright to said photograph and transfers them to purchaser for the agreed upon amount. Seller agrees to endemnify the purchaser against any present and future claims by third parties including the creator of the photograph and any persons or properties whose likeness is depicted in the photographic image. >>
Not all photographers will grant this, but if you can get copyright ownership for photos you commission, it seems like it could make your life much easier in the future.
<< <i>Back in the early days of True-View, I remember PCGS being very specific about the image "belonging" to the purchaser, and NOT the subsequent buyer. >>
If a subsequent coin owner has no rights to previously purchased TrueView images, then he or she cannot build a personal website using TrueViews of coins owned now with TrueViews purchased by previous owners.
This seems like it would be an important point to clarify for some collectors.
<< <i>TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
Don, thanks for posting a clarification.
A question I have is whether the right to use a TrueView transfers to the new owner when the coin is sold? >>
Don's post says you can't transfer the image to anyone else so I read that as a "no". >>
That's one way of reading it, except that "the owner" presumably references the coin, not the photos, since as I understand it, PCGS "owns" the photos. If I sell a coin, does the new owner inherit the TV license? Sure seems like that would be the most logical outcome.
Whatever the situation, I'd like to get an explicit answer for future reference.
Any photograph that is paid for is considered to be a "work for hire" and copyright transfers to the person who paid for the photograph to be taken unless the photographer explicitly reserves copyright. >>
Well you would be wrong then. You just can't make up your own meaning of "work for hire"
I am amazed at how you all want to fight China with their coin copies but think it is perfectly fine to steal content.
<< <i> TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
AWESOME. Thank you Don.
That last line literally stopped the neck ache that I had developed from these threads
I will now prepare my next All-TruView submission with a humongous breath of fresh air!
Any photograph that is paid for is considered to be a "work for hire" and copyright transfers to the person who paid for the photograph to be taken unless the photographer explicitly reserves copyright. >>
Well you would be wrong then. You just can't make up your own meaning of "work for hire"
I am amazed at how you all want to fight China with their coin copies but think it is perfectly fine to steal content. >>
No kidding, huh? I think this would all be worked out much better if the "professional" photographers paid folks to take pictures of the coins (and other things), then it would make it very clear that the images are that of the photographer and not the person paying the photographer for the service.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So it's ok to store Trueviews on Photobucket, enabling you to post them to threads, but NOT be able to store them on your own hosted site. >>
Posting one or two TrueViews of something you own on a random chat thread here or there is different than doing it en masse on a dedicated website.
So you're saying it's totally OK with you if, say, someone created their own "robec informational site" using all of your pics without asking?
(Side note- you have some very nice coins on your site. Congrats.) >>
Not at all. I'm trying to clarify if it is "legal" to store the TrueViews on a site like mine.
The main reason I went to hosting my site was so I could post photos (mine and my TrueViews) to message boards such as this without having the images watered down the way Photobucket does.
These have to be stored someplace right?
Thank you for your side note. >>
PCGS makes TrueViews available online via the http://images.pcgs.com server so, theoretically, you shouldn't need separate storage for TrueViews. >>
Do you honestly think everyone that posts a TrueView goes to the pcgs server rather than upload to an image hosting site? Maybe I am the only one that uploaded TV's to a site like Photobucket, I don't know. >>
I think many people upload TrueViews images to image hosting sites; however I was responding to your question "These have to be stored someplace right?" So while many people may want to post TrueViews to an image hosting site and it may be more convenient, it's not strictly necessary.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>So it's ok to store Trueviews on Photobucket, enabling you to post them to threads, but NOT be able to store them on your own hosted site. >>
I think you can post or host them wherever you want if you were the one who submitted the coins and/or you are the one who currently owns the coins. What you cannot do is grant a third party permission to use the images on their site. Copyright for the images stays with PCGS, and they are the sole entity to grant right for use.
Think of it as if you took your kids to JC Penney and had portraits taken of them. You get the images and you can hang them wherever you want, but you can't take photos down to Kinkos and have additional prints made, nor can they be used by a third party for a commercial enterprise. If you want to give a copy to Grandma to hang on her "100 Favorite Grandkids" wall, you have to buy it from the photographer.
Sean Reynolds >>
Yeah.....better go buy some extras for the grandparents. Not like the prices aren't out of line, and not like folks don't have scanners and digitally share the pictures with those in their family circle that way.
Sean - not getting on you at all by quoting you.....I have no disagreement with what you said, just adding on that, given modern technology, prices, people's ways doing things, etc, that anyone going 100% "by the rules" is likely "lying, stupid, absurdly rich, naive, etc etc etc". Note, I said 100% of the time. That means, I do believe, that you can't get said picture from a professional, and then scan/digitize it to share, ask opinions, and go back and purchase to send to the person(s) you shared with....if going by the letter of the law....unless you have express permission to do so.
This whole thing has gotten, imho, out of hand, and too many people are being polarized by it by a few folks. To me, I could honestly not care less than I already do.
I have some trueviews, that I paid for, but I don't create websites....so it doesn't impact me. I do think the law around this, and I know it will upset a vocal few, is not a good law, however, in the way it is written and how some wish to enforce it. >>
Bochi, I see your point, but I believe that it is exactly because copyrights are so easily circumvented by today's technology that it is important for companies like PCGS to exercise those rights whenever possible. The fact that you can torrent just about any television show imaginable doesn't mean networks should stop submitting copyright claims on infringing YouTube videos.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>
I think many people upload TrueViews images to image hosting sites; however I was responding to your question "These have to be stored someplace right?" So while many people may want to post TrueViews to an image hosting site and it may be more convenient, it's not strictly necessary. >>
Gotcha! I should have left that remark out.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Say an unscrupulous competitor gets a hold of a Trueview photo and maybe something was just not quite right about the photo. The competitor sells their own photography against this photo and profits from it while at the same time blasting the quality of the photo and casting doubt about PCGS at the same time. Standards and accepted practices change over time and what might be considered far fetched today might not be so in a few years.
Stranger things have happened.
A photographer retains ownership and rights to his/her work. Unless rights are released in writing. Might be that it is a policy in the making and under review.
I like Todd Pollock for taking pictures of coins (my brother is a professional photographer but Todd knows coins).
Never the twain shall meet!
bob
<< <i>If Don/PCGS wanted us to not be in the dark, they would have told use what is an allowable use is by now. >>
Not exactly. It's in their best interest to not say anything until all gray areas and questions, some of which are still coming up in these threads, have been resolved to their satisfaction, and they can make one clearly understood statement that covers it all. A response that partially answers something or raises further questions or issues only makes matters worse. Having potential customers feel as though they're being kept in the dark about what they can and cannot do with something they buy isn't a great idea, and I assume that a rigorous list of rules, probably with examples that cite these rules, will be forthcoming when they are ready.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
11. In the ordinary course of its grading operations, PCGS (i) compiles data
regarding each coin submitted for grading, including, but not limited to, data
relating to the identity, minting, condition and grade of the coin (the “Data”);
and (ii) may take, or have taken, one or more digital or other types of photographs, images or reproductions of each such coin (collectively, the “Images”).
In consideration for the grading services being provided by PCGS, Customer,
on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting,
hereby authorizes PCGS (i) to compile and maintain such Data with respect
to each coin submitted hereunder for grading; and (ii) to take, or cause to
be taken, one or more Images of each such coin, and further agrees that PCGS
will be the owner of such Data and all such Images and that PCGS may use
and exploit such Data and the Images for commercial and any other purposes,
as PCGS in its sole discretion deems appropriate, including, but not limited to,
the publication and republication or reproduction in or on any media, of such
Data and Images. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, Customer,
on behalf of itself and any third party for whom Customer may be acting with
respect to this agreement, unconditionally and irrevocably transfers, conveys
and assigns to PCGS any and all current and any hereafter acquired rights, title
and interests (including, without limitation, rights in copyright, patent, trade
secret and trademark) that Customer or any such third party may have in or
to the Data and the Images (on whatever media or in whatever form such
Images may be reproduced or published).
TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit.
Any photograph that is paid for is considered to be a "work for hire" and copyright transfers to the person who paid for the photograph to be taken unless the photographer explicitly reserves copyright.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Thanks for the clarification. It is the common sense answer that most of us expected.
<< <i>TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
Don, thanks for posting a clarification.
A question I have is whether the right to use a TrueView transfers to the new owner when the coin is sold?
Thanks for the clarification. I think this addresses the concerns of both PCGS and individual TrueView clients.
<< <i>
<< <i>TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
Don, thanks for posting a clarification.
A question I have is whether the right to use a TrueView transfers to the new owner when the coin is sold? >>
Don's post says you can't transfer the image to anyone else so I read that as a "no".
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
Don, thanks for posting a clarification.
A question I have is whether the right to use a TrueView transfers to the new owner when the coin is sold? >>
Don's post says you can't transfer the image to anyone else so I read that as a "no". >>
I think the question is more of whether PCGS will transfer the license to the coin's future owner, not that a TrueView purchaser would sub-license it to a subsequent owner.
It is a valid question for purchasers of PCGS slabbed coins with existing TrueViews. Without this transfer, you could not create a website with TrueViews of coins you own now using TrueVIews purchased by others.
Since the service is for the "coin's owner," a related and valid question would be whether a TrueView purchaser retains a license to the TrueView after selling the coin, or if the license terminates when the TrueView purchaser no longer owns the coin.
Nowadays, the service seems to be just too expensive, especially since you essentially give up artistic control. Personally, a photo taken by me in the slab is often preferred. A photo taken by Todd Pollack is even better.
Empty Nest Collection
<< <i>Does anyone have a blank "Photographic ownership release" form? >>
Google found this recommended text on Photo.net's Business Forum: "copyright transfer - sample contract?":
<< <i>Upon full and complete payment of this invoice, all rights in perpetuity including the copyright to the photo described herein are transferred to CUSTOMER_NAME, his heirs and assignees. Seller warrants that he owns the all rights and copyright to said photograph and transfers them to purchaser for the agreed upon amount. Seller agrees to endemnify the purchaser against any present and future claims by third parties including the creator of the photograph and any persons or properties whose likeness is depicted in the photographic image. >>
Not all photographers will grant this, but if you can get copyright ownership for photos you commission, it seems like it could make your life much easier in the future.
<< <i>Back in the early days of True-View, I remember PCGS being very specific about the image "belonging" to the purchaser, and NOT the subsequent buyer. >>
If a subsequent coin owner has no rights to previously purchased TrueView images, then he or she cannot build a personal website using TrueViews of coins owned now with TrueViews purchased by previous owners.
This seems like it would be an important point to clarify for some collectors.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
Don, thanks for posting a clarification.
A question I have is whether the right to use a TrueView transfers to the new owner when the coin is sold? >>
Don's post says you can't transfer the image to anyone else so I read that as a "no". >>
That's one way of reading it, except that "the owner" presumably references the coin, not the photos, since
as I understand it, PCGS "owns" the photos. If I sell a coin, does the new owner inherit the TV license? Sure
seems like that would be the most logical outcome.
Whatever the situation, I'd like to get an explicit answer for future reference.
<< <i>My take on it -
Any photograph that is paid for is considered to be a "work for hire" and copyright transfers to the person who paid for the photograph to be taken unless the photographer explicitly reserves copyright. >>
Well you would be wrong then. You just can't make up your own meaning of "work for hire"
I am amazed at how you all want to fight China with their coin copies but think it is perfectly fine to steal content.
<< <i>
TrueView photos are a service PCGS offers for the coin's owner only, and consists only of PCGS taking the photo and then giving the owner a license to use that image for his or her own purposes, with no right to transfer or sub-license the image to anyone else.
If you have paid for a TrueView you can use it for your own purposes as you see fit. >>
AWESOME. Thank you Don.
That last line literally stopped the neck ache that I had developed from these threads
I will now prepare my next All-TruView submission with a humongous breath of fresh air!
<< <i>
<< <i>My take on it -
Any photograph that is paid for is considered to be a "work for hire" and copyright transfers to the person who paid for the photograph to be taken unless the photographer explicitly reserves copyright. >>
Well you would be wrong then. You just can't make up your own meaning of "work for hire"
I am amazed at how you all want to fight China with their coin copies but think it is perfectly fine to steal content. >>
No kidding, huh?
I think this would all be worked out much better if the "professional" photographers paid folks to take pictures of the coins (and other things), then it would make it very clear that the images are that of the photographer and not the person paying the photographer for the service.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment