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An example of a incomplete clip planchet mint error...

BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I was just looking for an example of a incomplete clip planchet mint error to show member jmcu12. Yet I couldn't find anything on the forum and recalled this being on Legends site. Legend has it listed as a die crack or toning line as seen in their description below. It's a true rarity to find a pattern with die cracks as even if the dies were used to strike different metal issues they never really saw enough use to tire. So if you take a close look at the obverse/reverse you'll see what a incomplete clip planchet mint error is.

image

Item - 5771

J- 896 1870 25C PCGS PR64RB DENALI
INTERESTING DIE CRACK!

This is a R7 (4-12 minted). It is a copper die trial. There is also a very unusual and interesting die crack (or line) that is on BOTH sides that looks like another coin had been sitting on it.

No question this coin is completely ORIGINAL and has 70% full Mint red color. There are two toning spots on the right obverse side. This die line really looks like another coin had been placed there. Hard to say what it is. One thing, it does NOT interfere with the coins grade or appearance. The mirrors overall are clean, clear, and have tremendous flash. Miss Liberty and the details are fully struck. The eye appeal is pleasing.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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Comments

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,157 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yep! That's what it is!
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • bigjpstbigjpst Posts: 3,101 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is a very interesting coin. The only incomplete planchet type I have seen was a small "clip", but have a pic so figured I'd post it. Hope you don't mind.
    image
    image
    Found this while roll searching a few years ago.
    JRobinsonRareCoins.com

    My Ebay Store

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That is a very interesting coin. The only incomplete planchet type I have seen was a small "clip", but have a pic so figured I'd post it. Hope you don't mind.
    Found this while roll searching a few years ago. >>



    bigjpst, Thanks yet your bicentennial Kennedy is a fully executed completed clip not a incomplete clip.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    I think bigjpst and many others, myself included, may have missed the subtlety of exactly what you are stating in your OP. At first, when I read your post, I thought you may have been using an improper term, "incomplete clip planchet", combining the similar terms "incomplete planchet" and "clip planchet" into one. It was not until I studied the image of the obverse of the pattern coin closely that it dawned on me exactly what you were saying. If bigjpst and others look closely at the obverse of the J-896 pattern quarter, you will see a perfectly circular line, with a radius the same as the quarter, beginning to the right of the second S in STATES, and continuing in an arc to just below the second A of AMERICA. This is presumably where the planchet cutter started, but did not complete, a cut on the planchet before it advanced a full coin diameter. This would have resulted in an approximate 40% clipped planchet had it completed the cut. The line is faint, and easily missed at first glance. Very interesting piece. Of course, it also could be, as Legend states, merely a toning line from another coin being placed on top of the subject coin.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • jhdflajhdfla Posts: 3,030 ✭✭✭
    Perfectly circular, with the same radius as the quarter, evident on both sides, as Mr. HD has said. A very interesting and cool piece, thanks for posting it Broadstruck!
    SeatedQuarters
  • gonzergonzer Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice example. To further this matter, if the punch had gone through the strip and both pieces were struck, you would have a nice "regular" clipped coin and a much more rare 'elliptical' clip.
  • bigjpstbigjpst Posts: 3,101 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>That is a very interesting coin. The only incomplete planchet type I have seen was a small "clip", but have a pic so figured I'd post it. Hope you don't mind.
    Found this while roll searching a few years ago. >>



    bigjpst, Thanks yet your bicentennial Kennedy is a fully executed completed clip not a incomplete clip. >>


    Oh Ok, I think in my head I was thinking "incomplete planchet", not "incompleted clip". Thanks for the clarification, and the info.
    JRobinsonRareCoins.com

    My Ebay Store

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dang! I have a really nice incomplete clip that I just put into hibernation (SDB) for a while and I could have added it to the thread. It's an unusual error type that seems to be often discounted as damage at first glance.

    Thanks for starting the thread, Broadstruck!
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's another example from my collection, the picture is rather small but the depth of the partial planchet punch is much deeper than on the coin in the OP. I also have a Jefferson nickel with one complete and one incomplete clip, I just don't have it photographed. I bought the dime unattributed at a show for $10, the dealer was savvy enough to know the curved indent was unusual and pre-strike but he had no idea what had caused it. I explained how the error occurred and we both walked away happy. image

    image


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very cool, Sean. That is a VERY nice example!
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    'Back in the Day' - the late 60's,
    two of my specialty areas of
    collecting and understanding were
    Elliptical Clipped Planchets, and
    Incomplete PunchedPlanchets.

    I found them quite intriguing,
    and of course related to each other.

    IncompletePunched Planchetsare much rarer than
    are commonly believed, and underappreciated
    as an example of the Minting Process
    going wrong.......

    Elliptical Clips are scarce in general,
    rare on some series, unknown on others.
    It's been an interesting observation that
    there have been an unusual amount of
    Elliptical Clipped State Quarters since about
    2002-2007 - don't know why........

    That Pattern Incomplete Punched Planchet
    is something I've not seen before.......love it!

    Fred
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,337 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nice errors all image
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  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>PCGS Trueview:
    image >>

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    HA pics...

    image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is a really cool error.

    I need a modern example for my collection if I can find one at a reasonable price.
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I used to deal w/Patterns back in the 70's,
    and I can say that this is the first Pattern
    coin I've ever seen or heard of with the
    Incomplete Punched Planchet type error on it.

    I handled and catalog'd a very large deal
    of Patterns that we purchased (Numismatics, Ltd.)
    directly from Abe Kosoff in 1974, that contained
    many, many hundreds of patterns, and although
    there were two or three double strikes (in collar,
    close overlapped), and one or two clips, there
    were no Off Centers, and no Incomplete Punched
    Planchet strikes.

    Congrats to Broadstrike for finding this Needle
    in a Haystack, and recognizing it for what it is,
    and not the 'die crack' it was described as.


    Fred
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks FredWeinberg I actually noticed it in April but it was still there the other day when I needed a pic of this type of error. Pre-strike on a blank planchet as it was hand fed this must have been highly noticeable. Unless it was bring a child to work day at the mint and a young Helen Keller struck this pattern? As it boggles my mind that a defective planchet was used to strike a presentation proof! This must be a highly uncommon error on any proof issue as I've never seen another?
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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  • gonzergonzer Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As it boggles my mind that a defective planchet was used to strike a presentation proof! This must be a highly uncommon error on any proof issue as I've never seen another? >>



    Very interesting point.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Are these patterns die trials or essai's.....come to think of it what is the difference? >>



    Essai means Pattern in French image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Are these patterns die trials or essai's.....come to think of it what is the difference? >>



    Essai means Pattern in French image >>



    Wow, I must admit I am a little surprised by your answer, if you go to Pattern.com it labels each pattern as one or the other, then what is a die trial and why is it in the pattern website?

    Thanks Broadstruck for the lesson on patterns, it helped greatly, these are not in my comfortae zone since I own all of three examples two of them being large Cent flying eagles an 1854 & 1855 and didn't think they were very complicated until this one was posted. >>



    Your welcome... I figured this wasn't the place and it's best to attack your questions via PM image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • KennyHKennyH Posts: 31 ✭
    Very enlightening thread...
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  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    Without a close-up photo, I would hesitate to proclaim this an incomplete punch. One would have to establish that the two curved lines truly represent narrow, sharply-defined grooves. That would require examination under a microscope.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • erickso1erickso1 Posts: 1,705 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Without a close-up photo, I would hesitate to proclaim this an incomplete punch. One would have to establish that the two curved lines truly represent narrow, sharply-defined grooves. That would require examination under a microscope. >>



    If possibly not an incomplete punch what could it possibly be then?
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    I wouldn't speculate on its nature and origin without an examination under a microscope. It could very well be an incomplete punch, but it would be a decidely peculiar one. The uniform thickness (or thinness) is odd. One would ordinarily expect an incisure from a blanking die to be widest in the areas of lowest effective striking pressure, like the rim. It's not even visible on the rim. A punch mark should also appear on the edge.

    I tend to be a cautious fellow. It's an attitude that's served me well. I've seen at least two slabbed Morgan dollars with alleged incomplete punch errors that clearly were something else. This pattern is more convincing, but not wholly convincing, at least not yet.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    The owner contacted me and assured me that the curved lines on each face penetrate the surface. That would seem to clinch the case for an incomplete punch error.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • harveypbharveypb Posts: 514 ✭


    I sent a nice Bust Half in the 1830's to PCGS for slabbing because it had a clipped planchet and I wanted it noted on the slab. I got it back and it was graded VF30 but it didn't say clipped planchet on the holder. I sent it back. Hope this time they get it right and put it on the holder. Its really neat.. In the "valley" of the clip is a letter from the edge lettering...
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  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Prof. Hill, the Buffalo you posted appears to be post mint damage. The telling part is on the reverse, the fields on either side of a true incomplete clip should be on the same plane. However on your coin the area toward the rim looks to be significantly compressed versus the center of the coin.

    Here's an image of another genuine incomplete clip I forgot I owned, it is a little tough to see but the incomplete clip is just below the rim clip. You can see how close together the punches are, and how little shifting between them is needed to create a clip.

    image


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
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  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    I would have to agree with Sean that the buffalo nickel is probably afflicted with post-strike damage. There appears to be a step down on the reverse into a recessed crescentic area. That would be consistent with post-strike damage and completely incompatible with an incomplete punch error.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
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  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    I doubt any metal was removed. Instead, the recessed area was probably crushed.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
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  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As Sean and Mike have said, that 1937
    Buffalo Nickel is PMD, and not an error.

    sorry......
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,294 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's a "top of the line'' cherrypick, Broadstruck. image
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  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,157 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PMD
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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