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Isabella "Proof"?? Here is your proof!!!

Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Wire rims, square edges, unbelievable strike. But now for the real question......what is the perfectly etched "11." on the reverse? No one would do that unless it was for a reason, like identifying a sample for approval? It is too small and perfect to be done by a novice.

Finally, I attached the MS68 PCGS photo. (Heritage has the full image). Look at the ribbon in her hair, then look at the ribbon on the "proof", as well as the rest of the strike anywhere. While not as pretty, the strike blows miss MS68 away! End of story!! (At least in my mind. LOL!)


image


image


image


image

Comments

  • robertprrobertpr Posts: 6,862 ✭✭✭
    Is the 11 etched in the coin as you say, or is it raised up? It looks raised in the images?
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This angle really shows the precise rims.


    image
  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭✭
    Not a proof IMO. Edge is not sharp enough, not proof looking at all. Notice where the edge meets the rim, it rounds out. That makes it a BS
  • GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
    The coin does not appear to be a proof, and the "11" is probably a catalog number by a curator.
  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭
    I agree with steeler as well as the strike is not better IMO then the other coin you show just the dark tarnish is accenting it. Wire rims are caused by striking pressure and metal forming around edges of the die does not always mean proof.
    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Not a proof IMO. Edge is not sharp enough, not proof looking at all. Notice where the edge meets the rim, it rounds out. That makes it a BS >>




    Put a new image up of the rim. If that is not square, what is?
  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭✭
    Even with the new picture in your edited post, the "wire" doesn't make it a proof. It could be a sign of a proof, but it doesn't mean it is one.

    Revert that post to the old picture and I can point out what I mean for you by it's not square enough
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The coin does not appear to be a proof, and the "11" is probably a catalog number by a curator. >>



    LOL! Now that is funny. Do you do the same on your own coins??

    This strike is awesome on these cheap pics, you should see it between your fingers!
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is the other pic Steeler asked for. I was trying to get an angle on the 11 but it didn't work out.


    image
  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭
    Here are two auctions both have good strikes and wire rims, neither sellers claims them to be proofs

    First

    Two
    Wonder why that isimage
    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭✭
    A somewhat exaggerated explanation, but I hope the diagram helps. The colored arrows in the top left correspond to the colored arrows pointing on the coin.

    image
  • RedneckHBRedneckHB Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭✭
    AU58 Graffiti, net XF. $175.
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Under all that toning, there is a cameo also.


    image
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,789 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Here is the other pic Steeler asked for. I was trying to get an angle on the 11 but it didn't work out.


    image >>

    ''

    This photograph proves it is not a Proof. The rims are well struck, but not the reeding. Notice how the reeds fall off near their ends, i.e., where they approach the rims. Proof reeding should be solid all the way from the obvere rim to the reverse rim.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>AU58 Graffiti, net XF. $175. >>



    Here is the last PCGS AU58-CAC sold on Heritage. How do you grade it? F12??





    image



    image
  • RedneckHBRedneckHB Posts: 19,704 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I dont grade it F-12. I grade it $175. Someday you'll understand.
    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭
    Its not much different from yours as far as wear, those marks are on the slab in the heritage photos. What cohodk said was yours has au58 details which it does IMO as well, but a net grade for the damage would cause it to valued at around a XF grade. BTW that engraving is very crude IMO look at the love tokens from that era, some are real works of art.
    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I dont grade it F-12. I grade it $175. Someday you'll understand. >>


    Someone's not very happy today image

    What cohodk is making a reference to how TPGs grade coins based on their value.
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I dont grade it F-12. I grade it $175. Someday you'll understand. >>



    Nope, I will never understand. That's why I come here, so that I can follow your wisdom.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Stealer, those illustrations are like a John Madden telestrator example! Sweet!
  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I dont grade it F-12. I grade it $175. Someday you'll understand. >>


    Someone's not very happy today image

    Dave went in to have his tonsils taken out when he was eleven. Instead they removed his feelings. image

    MJ
    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,432 ✭✭✭
    dave rocks with respect...problems with dave
    no cookie for you or that coin
    image
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,421 ✭✭✭✭✭
    First, I agree with CaptHenway.

    A few more things:

    Virtually all Isabellas are perfectly struck, so a strong strike is not a compelling argument.

    Also, there are many fully proof-like Isabellas in existence, all of which have far more "proof" characteristics than the coin in the OP.

    Finally, NGC (but not PCGS) has certified a small number of proofs. The NGC coins are solidly mirrored but not cameo'd to any meaningful extent. I believe that PCGS' position is that proofs were not struck, period.

    General lesson to be learned from this thread is that the more coins you see, the more likely it is you'll recognize something that is truly different from the rest.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • goldengolden Posts: 9,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Back in the day I handled a number of coins with wire rims that were not proofs.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Based on the eleven your Isabella might be from the Nigel Tufnel collection which was sold on November 11, 2011 image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have personally found that PCGS is very stringent when it comes to proof determination. I mean, even if the strike is all there, and the proof diagnostics are present, they will still BS a coin just because it looks BS.

    So the question is, is that called "market grading" when a proof designation means a substantial price increase? If a proof were worth less than a BS (like an 1877 cent) would the same coin go proof then?

    Empty Nest Collection

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,930 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But didn't Nigel's head explode
    BEFORE the Auction took place?
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,096 ✭✭✭
    For what it's worth, PCGS has 2 in the population reports, a PR62 and a PR65. The PR65 sold at the Stacks/Bowers auction in February of this year for a little over $40,000. Here is a link to that auction. It is my understanding that while at one point PCGS did certify Isabellas as Proofs, they will no longer do so because there are no markers the definitively prove one way or the other. Same goes for Columbian Proofs.

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    General lesson to be learned from this thread is that the more coins you see, the more likely it is you'll recognize something that is truly different from the rest.

    a very good point for this thread and a very good point for defense of professional graders when we view pictures and assail their judgement.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>But didn't Nigel's head explode
    BEFORE the Auction took place? >>



    During the auction towards the end of Lot #11.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>For what it's worth, PCGS has 2 in the population reports, a PR62 and a PR65. The PR65 sold at the Stacks/Bowers auction in February of this year for a little over $40,000. Here is a link to that auction. It is my understanding that while at one point PCGS did certify Isabellas as Proofs, they will no longer do so because there are no markers the definitively prove one way or the other. Same goes for Columbian Proofs.

    -Paul >>



    Sure there is a marker, it's an "11" etched on the back! HAHAHA!!!
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • KoveKove Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is my understanding that while at one point PCGS did certify Isabellas as Proofs, they will no longer do so because there are no markers the definitively prove one way or the other. Same goes for Columbian Proof >>



    This statement is correct for Isabellas, but not for Columbians. There are definitive die markers for the 1892 Columbian proofs (photos posted in another thread on this topic), and PCGS is still certifying 1892 Columbian proofs.

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