First Post and D304 Ty Cobb issue
drcg1
Posts: 8
My first official post - don't count the test.
I wanted to share this as it came to my attention in this past week. I'm not a major collector, but appreciative of the history and heritage many cards hold.
A Ty Cobb D304 with General Baking Co. back had found its way to my area of Michigan.
Having recently gotten back into the hobby I had to investigate. The card was with a lot of 17 cards a guy was having auctioned at a local auction business - no internet sales.
I bought other cards at his auction before ungraded and were in nice shape - checked for accurate dots and sizes.
This next batch were all graded by PRO Sports Grading, Inc. Did my homework and found the company out of business and reputation of buying cards, trimming, and regrading at a higher grade, then selling them.
I was skeptical from the start.
The D304 measured 1/32" short on both H x W but the dot patterns were good for the era.
all by 2 of the 17 cards were short 1/32" on either H, W, or both.
Called PSA and after a lengthy discussion it was concluded they wouldn't grade it or encase it due to the doctoring - it also had been re-inked on the back bottom border.
here is the links and attachements (hopefully) showing the same card - notice the foxing spot on the elbow, that gave it away and the back has several foxing locations that match identical.
Ty Cobb D304 Heritage Auctions 2010
#2 Ty Cobb D304 Coach's Corner Auction undated
Sorry for the long opening post - Any others have thoughts of my assessment - and the fact I'm staying away from purchasing? (I was going to buy to resell later.)
thanks
chris
I wanted to share this as it came to my attention in this past week. I'm not a major collector, but appreciative of the history and heritage many cards hold.
A Ty Cobb D304 with General Baking Co. back had found its way to my area of Michigan.
Having recently gotten back into the hobby I had to investigate. The card was with a lot of 17 cards a guy was having auctioned at a local auction business - no internet sales.
I bought other cards at his auction before ungraded and were in nice shape - checked for accurate dots and sizes.
This next batch were all graded by PRO Sports Grading, Inc. Did my homework and found the company out of business and reputation of buying cards, trimming, and regrading at a higher grade, then selling them.
I was skeptical from the start.
The D304 measured 1/32" short on both H x W but the dot patterns were good for the era.
all by 2 of the 17 cards were short 1/32" on either H, W, or both.
Called PSA and after a lengthy discussion it was concluded they wouldn't grade it or encase it due to the doctoring - it also had been re-inked on the back bottom border.
here is the links and attachements (hopefully) showing the same card - notice the foxing spot on the elbow, that gave it away and the back has several foxing locations that match identical.
Ty Cobb D304 Heritage Auctions 2010
#2 Ty Cobb D304 Coach's Corner Auction undated
Sorry for the long opening post - Any others have thoughts of my assessment - and the fact I'm staying away from purchasing? (I was going to buy to resell later.)
thanks
chris
0
Comments
I agree with you, it does look like the same card.... but
strange..... Just taking a fast look at all.... the image in the CC auction is washed out looking and there is a chance it may be a homemade fake made from the SGC image ??
If it was cracked and then doctored whoever did that was an idiot and killed thousands of $$ in value, ink doctoring will never make it by a good grader, corner doctoring (hiding trimjobs) can....... its a high demand high end card in any condition, whoever messed with it was an idiot.
Coach's Corner is a joke and a scam 99% of the time ..
But saying that... PRO rarely if ever slabbed fake cards, only trimmed cards and a bit overgrades is all Ive seen. Ive bought at least 15-20 PRO cards and all were mid-low grade and not trimmed (ie Tango Egg cards etc.), just a bit overgraded compared to SGC/PSA...
Interesting
the card started out in the SGC slab, someidiot cracked it out, doctored the corners and reinked the lines on back, then tried to get it slabbed again? (being rejected), then they went to PRO to get it in a slab ...... and now its a PRO-6, instead of a SGC-20
I dont know why PSA (or SGC) cant slab it a "A" Authentic and note that its been "restored", they have done that with other high end cards in the past.
Like I said in last post the idiot that did this ruined the value quite a bit, even though it has a bit more eye appeal now.
If you can get it for an "A" value (ie far less than a PSA-1), it may be a good pickup to flip..... But in the PRO-6 slab I dont think you will get a great deal as a newbie might pay PSA-2+ $$ for it thinking they can cross it to a 4-5... thats all these crooks are trying to do.... crack doctor flip for profit
Nice Research, hopefully a collector or two who may have been interested in this exact card now knows it true history, and will bid accordingly and not get burnt when they crack it out and try cross to SGC/PSA
I know at least two others that will be bidding on the card and I can guarantee the price won't be affordable for me for that condition and not be able to get it reslabbed. I was thinking a couple hundred, but I know the other two will definitely go above 5.
Made me sick too once I realized what happened. As far as the corners, the holder it is in allows the card to literally move around freely so it is bouncing around pretty good, and also, under magnification it looked like it was rubbed. I can't say for certain under 10x loupe, but it didn't look as natural. I agree though, it does make you think about what they did.
I like your opinion of whoever did this - they have no respect or appreciation for its importance and value - idiot is a nice choice, I had a few other choice words to consider but we'll keep it polite.
thanks again for the feedback -
an SGC60 (w/Brunners back) went for a crazy $109,000 in 2008, and a PSA-8 sold for $94,000 in 2010
.....but most offered sell for far less ($5K-$20K)
The D304 set is popular now, I remember back in the '80s they used to sell for only slightly more than a T206 and even less than many E cards and the D303s, now they go for far more, took off about 6-8 years ago along with the similar looking D322s Pirates cards.
Makes sense for such a rare card to find with the General Baking back. Brutal as it is that someone screwed with the card, I would hope being up front and honest about its past may help a potential buyer look past those issues and want it in their collection.
We'll see what happens. Thanks again for the information, it definitely helped.
Chris
thank you,
chris
Lou Gehrig Master Set
Non-Registry Collection
Game Used Cards Collection
I appreciate the advice on caution as well. I did read some other boards that had a pic of an early reprint of a different D304- It appears the color seems to be one of the big things to notice if it is an early reprint. Unfortunately I have had zero experience with these early cards other than basic knowledge of ink patterns and using a black light.
Thanks again for the help. I'll post back with the outcome Saturday.
On a side note - it is funny I'm getting opportunities for these cards, as my first interest is hockey, having played for half my life, and living in the area of the first professional ice hockey league - the upper peninsula of Michigan.
Regardless, I love the history and appreciate the hobby for what it brings and the history it tells.
sorry, soap box.
Some of you who make short comments should back up your comment w/facts. I see one did with an example of a poorly trimmed card (most likely bad eye appeal), this card in question is not poorly trimmed and would fit almost every D304 set. The D304 Cobb is a card that does reach 6 figures, so paying less that 1% of that for an intact card in any condition is not a bad choice.... thanks for the laugh guys, aloha
Was supposed to talk to sgc tonight but it didn't happen - tomorrow then. The card that sold at judge is clearly in much rougher shape then the one I looked at.
Another side note, Nap Lajoie name might be connected to my grandmother's family, maiden name is a variation of Lajoie and her uncle left Michigan to go out east and was a ball player, would be cool to have a family connection.
Thanks again
<< <i>Some of you who make short comments >>
Perhaps you should have kept it short. Specifically, you probably should have stopped after you wrote:
"very strange how the card in the 2 images you linked to at bottom (attachments) has much rounder corners than when it was in the SGC slab.
I agree with you, it does look like the same card.... but
strange..... Just taking a fast look at all.... the image in the CC auction is washed out looking and there is a chance it may be a homemade fake made from the SGC image ??"
<< <i>thanks for the laugh guys, aloha >>
I got a good chuckle when CollectorAtWork wrote: "FKW is really an expert here"
It is now out of the market and as far as I know never to be entered again. I spoke with SGC at length about the card possessed the correct ink patterns, but is still counterfeit - well, long story short, they put some effort into it.
that's all she wrote! thanks for all you input and help.
<< <i>The confirmation has been made by SGC - the Ty Cobb D304 in the PRO slab is a counterfeit >>
Surprise surprise.
After reading your research, I did not attend the auction (about a two hour drive from my house).
I'd be interested what they sold at.