Ancient Greek Language Experts Wanted.

ProofArtworkonCircs

Here is a topic that has haunted me for decades. How was Caesar pronounced in ancient times. Was it Caesar as we normally think of it or kaiser? I understand that there are two schools of thought on how to pronounce Latin.

I have seen pix of Roman coins in the Greek language and it looks like it would be pronounced Kaiser to me.

Did I interpret that inscription properly correctly?
Was ancient Greek pronounced the same as modern?

EVillageProwler

Ok, this response doesn't directly answer your question, but maybe it'll help...

Latin in the olden days came in two flavors: high, and base (or common). They have official linguistic names, but I forget them (and can't be bothered to google!). High Latin was the official, proper version, and that language used hard consonant sounds. The letter 'c' was pronounced with a modern English 'k' sound. Base Latin came later and introduced soft sounds, like pronouncing their 'c' with a modern English 's' sound.

In ancient Greek, at least around the 1st century AD, I think the early Christians would pronounce XP... (Chi-Rho-Iota-Sigma-Tau-Omicron) with a modern English 'k' sound.

Regards,

EVP

PS I think what I wrote above is correct, but please note that I am not an academically trained linguist.

Sapyx

"Caesar" is a Latin name, so a "Greek language expert" isn't going to help much.

Except to agree that on Greek-language provincial coins, "Caesar" is indeed spelled "Kaisaros"; it was certainly pronounced with a "K" by Greek-speakers, both ancient and modern. Which doesn't tell us much about how ancient Latin actually sounded.

Unfortunately, we don't learn very much by seeing how the word is pronounced in other modern European languages, not even those directly descended from Latin - an illustration of the different accents Latin acquired back in Imperial days (just as Americans and Australians pronounce English words differently, though they speak mostly the same language) which eventually evolved into fully-fledged separate languages during the Dark Ages. In French (from whom the English learned their Latin pronunciations), "César" is pronounced with an "S". Italian "Cesare" and Romanian "Cezar" are pronounced with a "Ch". Spanish, Portuguese and Catalan "César" all have a "K"-like sound. The other thing these languages also seem to disagree on is where to place the emphasis: in all but English and the three Iberian languages, the emphasis is on the second syllable, "Zar", rather than the first.

On Google Translate, if you press the "listen" button on the Latin translation of "Caesar", the lady pronounces it like "kay-Sarr", indicating at least some Latin scholars believe "K" to be correct.

However the ancient Romans pronounced it, one thing seems clear: it certainly wasn't pronounced "Seize-er", as it is in English.

Hussulo

Very interesting Sapyx. So that is where we can see where the word "Kaiser" directly comes from from in relation to kings, ie German Emperor (Kaiser) and King of Prussia.

harasha

When I studied Latin in college, back in the 70s (antiquity to some), we were told that classical Latin would pronounce the "c" as a "k' as opposed to ecclesiastical Latin. There were other differences, as well. To the question as to how we would know, apparently there are surviving ancient texts that describe pronunciations as they existed.
Besides Kaiser, by the way, also Czar.

EVillageProwler

Apologies for this OT response...

Does anyone know why in English we have both "czar" and "tsar"? I have an educated guess, but would love to hear from folks who actually speak a Slavonic language.

EVP

ProofArtworkonCircs

Chiropractor and surgeon (chirurgeon originally) come from the same Greek word for "hand" (chir).
But I believe chirurgeon came through the French which gave us the S sound instead of K.

Some Hawaiian words used to be spelled with a T instead of a K. I believe the written Hawaiian languag has no B and no K. Thus the Polynesian "Taboo" is "Kapu."