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1964-D Peace Dollar diagnostics.
keets
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Don't ask me why because I don't know(my mind works like that sometimes!) but I found myself wondering about 1964-D Peace Dollars this morning and a wonderfully crazy thought came to me-----If a coin ever comes to be known, how exactly will it be authenticated as Genuine?? This presumes, of course, what is supposed to be factual information about any coins which were struck and all other specifics about the coins. I don't claim to know much past that link about the coins, but it raises certain doubts in my mind, among them the point touched on in the link that "according to at least one published report, they carried a "D" mint mark"(remember that during this time none of the Mints added MM's to the working dies). Looking past hearsay and all those who have claimed to have seen the coins, accepting that no working dies/master dies or original hubs exist and realizing that not even the Smithsonian Museum has a presentation piece, what would authentication be based on??
If I have the facts wrong please correct me because I'd hate to misinform anyone with wrong facts.
Al H.
If I have the facts wrong please correct me because I'd hate to misinform anyone with wrong facts.
Al H.
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I think the "D" mint mark was still in use in 1965, but was only being added to dies for the 1964-dated silver dimes, quarters and halves that were being produced alongside their 1965 clad counterparts.
So a "D" mintmark on a 1964-dated silver dollar would not have been out of line.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
it got out, where it's been, and such.
The coin itself has no example to compare to, so that may be an impossible task.
With counterfeits as good as they are today that would add another layer of problems.
I hope if one exists that the owner has the documentation, in writing, to make it happen.
bob
from the link i provided>But Western senators and congressmen continued to press for action -- and finally, on May 15, 1965, LBJ issued a presidential order directing that production begin without further delay.
During the days that followed, well over 300,000 silver dollars were struck at the Denver Mint. These included 30 trial strikes and 316,076 business strikes, presumably meant for use in circulation.
<< <i>Don't ask me why because I don't know(my mind works like that sometimes!) but I found myself wondering about 1964-D Peace Dollars this morning and a wonderfully crazy thought came to me-----If a coin ever comes to be known, how exactly will it be authenticated as Genuine?? This presumes, of course, what is supposed to be factual information about any coins which were struck and all other specifics about the coins. I don't claim to know much past that link about the coins, but it raises certain doubts in my mind, among them the point touched on in the link that "according to at least one published report, they carried a "D" mint mark"(remember that during this time none of the Mints added MM's to the working dies). Looking past hearsay and all those who have claimed to have seen the coins, accepting that no working dies/master dies or original hubs exist and realizing that not even the Smithsonian Museum has a presentation piece, what would authentication be based on??
If I have the facts wrong please correct me because I'd hate to misinform anyone with wrong facts.
Al H. >>
The dies would have been made in Philadelphia, since it was the only U.S. mint to have a die shop back then. It is generally accepted that the reverse die(s) used had a D mint mark.
It is possible that before the Mint Lab in Washington destroyed the two specimens sent to it for their counterfeit detection reference collection, they photographed them for future reference. I have no idea if they did or did not.
TD
<< <i><< (remember that during this time none of the Mints added MM's to the working dies) >>
I think the "D" mint mark was still in use in 1965, but was only being added to dies for the 1964-dated silver dimes, quarters and halves that were being produced alongside their 1965 clad counterparts.
So a "D" mintmark on a 1964-dated silver dollar would not have been out of line. >>
thanks for an honest reply, Tom. what prompted my thread is that there is almost nothing factual to base authenticity on and with the state of counterfieting today i wonder if a coin can ever be deemed legitimate with 100% certainty.
There is a very early clad working die with a mintmark. This is the 1964 D quarter variety C. When were quarter working dies ready? I would assume they waited until clad coinage was approved. That would put this die into 1965.
<< <i>I have a government press release that states the dollar striking was to be held up until the date freeze was passed. If they had to wait until 1965, they would use the 1965 date and none would be made in 1964. It also stated that they would carry the D mintmark in the usual position and none would be struck at Philadelphia. So they were thinking of putting a D mintmark on a 1965 dated coin. But they were able to use the 1964 date after all.
There is a very early clad working die with a mintmark. This is the 1964 D quarter variety C. When were quarter working dies ready? I would assume they waited until clad coinage was approved. That would put this die into 1965. >>
You have to look at and take into consideration the time line of events:
07/1964
On the 28th, The Congress passed the Fiscal Year 1965 Appropiations Legislation which included funds for production of 45 million silver dollars.
08/1964
President Johnson signs the 1965 Appropriations Legislation.
09/1965
On the 3rd Congress passed the “Retention of 1964 on All Coins Act” which allowed / required the U.S. Mint to strike 1964 – dated coins past the end of the current calendar year.
05/1965
On the 12th, Treasury Secretary Fowler authorizes the Bureau of the mint to begin striking Peace silver dollars dated 1964 in compliance with the “Retention of 1964 on All Coins Act” passed the previous September.
On the 13th, the Denver Mint began trial striking the Peace silver dollar.
On the 15th, President Johnson announced the start of resumed silver dollar production. The Denver Mint began production of Peace silver dollars dated 1964, intended for circulation.
On the 24th, President Johnson orders striking of the new Peace silver dollars stopped and the Denver Mint complied.
On the 25th, Director Eva Adams ordered the destruction of all recently struck Peace dollars dated 1964.
From the 26th through the 28th, the Denver Mint melts the 1964-dated Peace dollars.
On the 28th, all working dies (50 obverses and 6 reverses) for the 1964 Peace silver dollar coins were mutilated.
06/1965
On the 3rd, President Johnson proposed to Congress for authorization to replace silver in circulation coins with cheaper base metals.
07/1965
On the 23rd, President Johnson signs into law the “Coinage Act of 1965”
08/1965
Chief Engraver Gasparro is ordered to destroy 40 pairs of partially-completed Peace design dies at the Philadelphia Mint.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
i wonder what obscure documents could be laying at national archives...
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>After the 1964 silver dollar was cancelled, I'm surprised that western congressmen didn't successfully lobby for a 40% silver dollar with the same composition as the 1965-70 Kennedy half. This would likely have provided us with an additional six-year run of Peace dollars, including possibly several proofs. >>
With the passage of the “Coinage Act of 1965” which created the 40% half dollar, all future production of silver dollars was suspended for a minimum period of five years.
There was a 10 page press release in December 1964 on the History Of THe Silver Dollar. It didn't mention the 1964's at all.
The only things I learned there was that there were only 53,029 silver dollar coined under the Silver Purchase Act of 1934 (as backing for 1934 and subsequent silver certificates). But you can't tell them apart from the 7,021,528 coined under the Thomas Amendment to the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933 (as backing for the 1933 $10 silver certificates).
<< <i>If a coin ever comes to be known, how exactly will it be authenticated as Genuine. >>
a die gouge near the mint mark and this funny orange peel finish.
One could do a FOIA and ask if they have retained photos for future reference. the mint has a curator now for their "collection" and that curator might know or could find out.
Interesting since silver certificates continued to be produced through 1963, without further silver dollars being struck to back them. Were the later silver certificates backed by silver bullion rather than silver dollars?
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
where did this information come from and can it be verified??
<< <i>
<< <i>If a coin ever comes to be known, how exactly will it be authenticated as Genuine. >>
a die gouge near the mint mark and this funny orange peel finish.
One could do a FOIA and ask if they have retained photos for future reference. the mint has a curator now for their "collection" and that curator might know or could find out. >>
Please do so. I would be curious to hear what they say.
<< <i>a die gouge near the mint mark and this funny orange peel finish.
where did this information come from and can it be verified?? >>
I do believe he is referring to the "other" 1964-D dollars........
<< <i>I have no idea if they did or did not.
thanks for an honest reply, Tom. what prompted my thread is that there is almost nothing factual to base authenticity on and with the state of counterfieting today i wonder if a coin can ever be deemed legitimate with 100% certainty. >>
You are quite welcome.
A coin with a good and impeccable provenance could be deemed legitimate with 100% certainty, should any such coin ever emerge.
I know one test I would make should I ever have the opportunity to authenticate a 1964-D dollar, but I do not wish to reveal it lest it assist a hypothetical future counterfeiter.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have no idea if they did or did not.
thanks for an honest reply, Tom. what prompted my thread is that there is almost nothing factual to base authenticity on and with the state of counterfieting today i wonder if a coin can ever be deemed legitimate with 100% certainty. >>
You are quite welcome.
A coin with a good and impeccable provenance could be deemed legitimate with 100% certainty, should any such coin ever emerge.
I know one test I would make should I ever have the opportunity to authenticate a 1964-D dollar, but I do not wish to reveal it lest it assist a hypothetical future counterfeiter. >>
If you make 1964d peace dollars you're not a counterfeiter you're an artist. At least that is what I learned on the forum
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have no idea if they did or did not.
thanks for an honest reply, Tom. what prompted my thread is that there is almost nothing factual to base authenticity on and with the state of counterfieting today i wonder if a coin can ever be deemed legitimate with 100% certainty. >>
You are quite welcome.
A coin with a good and impeccable provenance could be deemed legitimate with 100% certainty, should any such coin ever emerge.
I know one test I would make should I ever have the opportunity to authenticate a 1964-D dollar, but I do not wish to reveal it lest it assist a hypothetical future counterfeiter. >>
If you make 1964d peace dollars you're not a counterfeiter you're an artist. At least that is what I learned on the forum >>
Gold star. You are paying attention.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If a coin ever comes to be known, how exactly will it be authenticated as Genuine. >>
a die gouge near the mint mark and this funny orange peel finish.
One could do a FOIA and ask if they have retained photos for future reference. the mint has a curator now for their "collection" and that curator might know or could find out. >>
Please do so. I would be curious to hear what they say. >>
Can you remind me maybe end of july?
I've just moved into a temp. apt. in CT and must deal with typical contractor bs on old house, sell old house, find new house, etc.
I figure things might be dying down or located in an eye-of-storm-pause enough in late July enough to ask, deal with it, and not forget it exists.
(and, no, he's no longer starving.)
True. Thus the late silver certificates were very similiar to the Treasury Notes of 1890.
The series 1933 silver certificates were backed by two ounces of silver per dollar. That is the most silver ever used for backing currency. However the Treasury could redeem them using subsidiary silver for a third of the redemption. That was the least silver ever used for redeemption. When redeemed for silver, they could be reissued, but without increasing the backing. I doubt that there was any rush to redeem them.
Joe
<< <i>Everything you want to know about the 1964 Peace dollar can be found in Roger Burdette's " A Guide to Peace Dollars". Mr Burdette devotes 36 pages to the 1964 Peace Dollar. He's done all the legwork. Well worth reading.
Joe >>
Indeed well worth reading, but Roger and I respectfully disagree on certain things regarding 1964-D Peace dollars.
TD
TD>>
Welcome to the club. Roger and I disagree on certain features of the 1922 Hub 1.
<< <i>
<< <i>Everything you want to know about the 1964 Peace dollar can be found in Roger Burdette's " A Guide to Peace Dollars". Mr Burdette devotes 36 pages to the 1964 Peace Dollar. He's done all the legwork. Well worth reading.
Joe >>
Indeed well worth reading, but Roger and I respectfully disagree on certain things regarding 1964-D Peace dollars.
TD >>
There is a second edition coming out (may be out already).
<< <i>I'm still amazed there are no pictures of the real deal.
...i believe there are...............and they're probably in fort knox!
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
check the following:
weight, specific gravity, diameter, thickness
style of edge collar when compared to other 1964 coinage
correct style 'D' mintmark
accuracy of fields and raised design texture when compared to other 1964 coinage
overall appearance of the coin
While we do not know specific die information on the 1964-D Peace $ (yes, I am a numismatist
that believes they exist), we have a huge amount of information on the other 1964 issues.
A genuine 1964-D Peace $ should be very similar to a 1964-D Kennedy half dollar or a 1964-D
Washington quarter, with the same basic die preparation resulting in similar luster, die polish
lines, and so forth.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If a coin ever comes to be known, how exactly will it be authenticated as Genuine. >>
a die gouge near the mint mark and this funny orange peel finish.
One could do a FOIA and ask if they have retained photos for future reference. the mint has a curator now for their "collection" and that curator might know or could find out. >>
Please do so. I would be curious to hear what they say. >>
Can you remind me maybe end of july?
I've just moved into a temp. apt. in CT and must deal with typical contractor bs on old house, sell old house, find new house, etc.
I figure things might be dying down or located in an eye-of-storm-pause enough in late July enough to ask, deal with it, and not forget it exists.
(and, no, he's no longer starving.) >>
can you remind me about mid-sept. ???
Do we make separate sets of questions for trial strikes and business strikes?
We are just asking IF they kept photos?
We could ask for permission for someone to view them?
Ask for a copy of the photo? (heck. I'd take a copier copy even if they don't want to scan it.)
Do we ask if they have one or two coins mysteriously squirrled away?
etc.
If we are going to make a request, may as well make it worth everyone's time by not going back for more info later.
<< <i>The mintmarks were removed in 1965, not 1964, so they would have to have had it...unless minted in Philadelphia, by my understanding. >>
1964 dated coins were minted into 1966.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>
<< <i>The mintmarks were removed in 1965, not 1964, so they would have to have had it...unless minted in Philadelphia, by my understanding. >>
1964 dated coins were minted into 1966. >>
the stories say these were minted in 65, but this was before the Coin Act of 65
Despite the facts that they would be unlawfully owned, it's my position that they exist (albeit a scant few), and I love the mystery surrounding numismatics. It (mystery) is almost the heartbeat of the hobby. At the very least, we must be objective to possibilities.
I think this is why there was such an uproar when the "other" was fabricated.
<< <i>I think there is at least 1 out there and to me, it would be naive/gullible to believe there is not.
Despite the facts that they would be unlawfully owned, it's my position that they exist (albeit a scant few), and I love the mystery surrounding numismatics. It (mystery) is almost the heartbeat of the hobby. At the very least, we must be objective to possibilities.
I think this is why there was such an uproar when the "other" was fabricated. >>
What evidence do you have that they exist? Sounds like wishful thinking;
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
If they had an old die from 1934-D they could have used that for the reverse. This could have been saved by the same team that made the 1936-S FS110 dime.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
http://www.coinshop.com
<< <i>Just some food for thougth.
If they had an old die from 1934-D they could have used that for the reverse. This could have been saved by the same team that made the 1936-S FS110 dime. >>
It has been well established that no old dies or hubs existed when the design was resurrected in 1964-65, and that new models, hubs and dies had to be made. The pieces that were struck were struck to test the new dies.
A similar situation happened when the Morgan Dollar was resurrected in 1921. None of the old hubs or dies survived, and Morgan had to start from scratch.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>
<< <i>I think there is at least 1 out there and to me, it would be naive/gullible to believe there is not.
Despite the facts that they would be unlawfully owned, it's my position that they exist (albeit a scant few), and I love the mystery surrounding numismatics. It (mystery) is almost the heartbeat of the hobby. At the very least, we must be objective to possibilities.
I think this is why there was such an uproar when the "other" was fabricated. >>
What evidence do you have that they exist? Sounds like wishful thinking; >>
1933 Gold Double Eagles, Sacagawea Mules, 1870 S half dime and a few other specimens over the years lead me to believe that anything is possible. I don't have wishful thinking, just a vivid imagination.
<< <i>I think there is at least 1 out there and to me, it would be naive/gullible to believe there is not.
Despite the facts that they would be unlawfully owned, it's my position that they exist (albeit a scant few), and I love the mystery surrounding numismatics. It (mystery) is almost the heartbeat of the hobby. At the very least, we must be objective to possibilities.
I think this is why there was such an uproar when the "other" was fabricated. >>
Since no one has proven that they either do or do not exist, it is neither naive nor gullible to chose to believe that they do or do not exist.
<< <i>I think there is at least 1 out there and to me, it would be naive/gullible to believe there is not. >>
While I believe some may exist, there is no evidence nor first person account so I think it's fine to believe either way.
<< <i>I think this is why there was such an uproar when the "other" was fabricated. >>
Beliefs can be strong, even when there is no evidence. However, I don't think there's any reason avoid making the other when it would be so easy to show one exists. PCGS has even said they would authenticate one for free. In the run up to issuance, there was ample opportunity to stop it by having one certified anonymously or having photos leaked anonymously which I suggested, but none of that happened.
So while I believe some may exist, given that no one has come forward even anonymously, I think it's acceptable to make fantasy pieces. Beliefs are good, but there's no reason to be trapped by ones that are so easily proven. And if any do exist, it seems like the owners may prefer the fantasy pieces to exist than taking action to stop their production. So it also appears acceptable from the perspective of theoretical owners as well.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think there is at least 1 out there and to me, it would be naive/gullible to believe there is not. >>
While I believe some may exist, there is no evidence nor first person account so I think it's fine to believe either way.
<< <i>I think this is why there was such an uproar when the "other" was fabricated. >>
Beliefs can be strong, even when there is no evidence. However, I don't think there's any reason avoid making the other when it would be so easy to show one exists. PCGS has even said they would authenticate one for free. In the run up to issuance, there was ample opportunity to stop it by having one certified anonymously or having photos leaked anonymously which I suggested, but none of that happened.
So while I believe some may exist, given that no one has come forward even anonymously, I think it's acceptable to make fantasy pieces. Beliefs are good, but there's no reason to be trapped by ones that are so easily proven. And if any do exist, it seems like the owners may prefer the fantasy pieces to exist than taking action to stop their production. So it also appears acceptable from the perspective of theoretical owners as well. >>
Speaking entirely hypothetically, if I did own one (which I do not!) I would not necessarily entrust it out of my hands to a TPG unless they agreed to bring their traveling slabbing equipment to my Swiss bank vault and do it there.
If a TPG had one in house and the Secret Service got wind of it, they would be there to seize it immediately and the TPG would have no choice but to surrender it.
Back in 1977 when the alleged 1977/6 cent came in to Coin World, we sent it, with the owner's permission, to the Mint Lab for authentication with the Director of the Mint's personal guarantee that the coin would be returned, no matter what the findings.
The Mint first told us that the overdate was genuine, and we printed the story, and after Fred Weinberg got his copy of the paper and started offering $100 each for additional copies the Mint suddenly called us and told us that
A. The overdate was not genuine, and
B. They would not be returning the coin after all.