Sending a Coin off to Spain (Stuck in Spanish Customs)

DougDismal · June 19, 2012 4:58AM

I sent a coin to Spain via an eBay purchase. It was mailed on the 6th of June, insured, through the priority mail system and as of 6/12 it is still stuck in customs. Should I begin to worry? It's in Spain, but it still seems like it's going through customs.

-Doug

jt88 · June 19, 2012 6:13AM

How do you know it is stuck in customs? If you declare value on the item, the customs will charge the buyer customers fee which might be delay the deliver. Some buyer might not even want to take the package due to the fee which it will send back to you later.

DougDismal · June 19, 2012 6:18AM

<< How do you know it is stuck in customs? If you declare value on the item, the customs will charge the buyer customers fee which might be delay the deliver. Some buyer might not even want to take the package due to the fee which it will send back to you later. >>

I know based on the tracking #.

It says,

Customs Clearance - June 12, 2012, 8:13 am SPAIN
International Parcels
Processed Through Sort Facility
June 12, 2012, 8:11 am
SPAIN

As for the value, am I supposed to lie about the total value of the item? Then what do I do if it gets lost and want to file an insurance claim?

960Coins · June 19, 2012 6:23AM

I've never shipped to Spain, but customs in some countries can take a very long time. A recent sale to Brazil sat in customs for a full 60 days before it was finally delivered. Sometimes it can take 90 days, sometimes it sails right through.

SaorAlba · June 19, 2012 7:46AM

There are particular countries, Netherlands, Germany, Finland that clear stuff fairly efficiently - and the dirty dozen that don't. The only time I have had a package go missing was last year sending something to my sister back in the home country. Now I just find someone going over there and have them take stuff for me and it gets there some circuitous way.

YQQ · June 23, 2012 1:55AM

Hi,
you say insured?????
Am just curious who insured it and what the terms of the coverage are????

if you send coins, I do not believe that ANY insurer , except paypal and perhaps Auctiva will cover it, and maybe a private insurer.
USPS will take the money for insurance, but the small print releases them from any liability beyond what they pay if the mail gets "lost" within their jurisdiction.
there is nothing wrong in my opinion to declare a shipment as "numismatics" and use a factitious value that comes close to the "pain tolerance" from where they start charging.
usually a country has certain threshold where they start charging, as the revenue should at least cover their handling expenses at customs.
my experience is that in European countries (Saor Alba mentioned, and a few other countries) the treshold is around Euro 70. Into Canada it is around $ 90,.
But that is only my experience.

mrpotatoheadd · June 23, 2012 2:24AM

When did PayPal start offering insurance? Can you post a link to their terms?

tewcd · June 23, 2012 2:28AM

They have seller protection similar to eBay, I you invoice directly through PayPal.

CIVITAS · June 23, 2012 2:29AM

<< 
there is nothing wrong in my opinion to declare a shipment as "numismatics" and use a factitious value that comes close to the "pain tolerance" from where they start charging.
>>

From the USPS website: "The sender’s failure to complete the form properly can delay delivery of the item or inconvenience the sender and addressee. Moreover, a false, misleading, or incomplete declaration can result in the seizure or return of the item and/or in criminal or civil penalties."

That being said, I use the term "Numismatic items." It's a fair and accurate description. The Customs offices will know what it means, but the average thieving postal employee might not, so it's a win-win. Also, if you do have to make a claim, having declared them as "Numismatic" bolsters your insurance claim since collectible coins are covered to a certain extent, whereas coins from your pocket would not be at all.

SaorAlba · June 23, 2012 3:58AM

<< 
That being said, I use the term "Numismatic items." It's a fair and accurate description. The Customs offices will know what it means, but the average thieving postal employee might not, so it's a win-win. Also, if you do have to make a claim, having declared them as "Numismatic" bolsters your insurance claim since collectible coins are covered to a certain extent, whereas coins from your pocket would not be at all. >>

From experience, sending and receiving, best is to be a bit more vague but still descriptive. IE "stamped metal disks" for coins and "antique engraved prints" for paper money.

TwoKopeiki · June 23, 2012 4:41AM

<< 
Customs Clearance - June 12, 2012, 8:13 am SPAIN
International Parcels
Processed Through Sort Facility
June 12, 2012, 8:11 am
SPAIN
>>

Custom clearance means it cleared customs and was processed at the sort facility, meaning it went into the Spanish Post system.

Use your tracking number in this site. and you can actually use the Spanish Post tracking system to see the status.

Or you can post the tracking number and i'll look it up for you.

YQQ · June 23, 2012 5:29AM

<< The sender’s failure to complete the form properly can delay delivery of the item or inconvenience the sender and addressee. Moreover, a false, misleading, or incomplete declaration can result in the seizure or return of the item and/or in criminal or civil penalties >>

this quote means not much, as Customs in any country always have the right, without a court order, to open and inspect any mail entering the country. They also have the right at any time to assess another than the declared value, which may or may not be correct.
They will only seize mail if the declaration is obviously wrong or purposely not declared correctly. (not necessarily in value, but in content)

AND, who says that one has to declare the purchase price? Just because someone pays $X for something does not mean it is worth $X. There is also NO requirement to include any documentation like a feebay or Paypal invoice.
It could simply be a private sale for $x.
In case of loss, all Paypal goes by is this: do you have proof of mailing in form of a tracking number.
IF there is a claim, the Postal service in any country will distance itself from the claim
As to the CN22 customs declaration..., as long as the contents is described, the declared valuecan be anything that a seller deems it to be. The declaration form does not require a sender to declare an actual "as sold" value. (a common misunderstanding)
It ONLY requires a sender to declare that " the particulars given in this declaration are true and correct".
So, a Item can have any value to the sender. And it will have nothing to do with the purchase of an item.
I believe it is just like with grading: values are accepted opinions.
BTW, it is a perfect legal declaration to declare a dollar coin as $1 value.
I know , many of you will start thinking and or arguing about that.., but read the form. It clearly does say "Value" and not Value as sold.

mrpotatoheadd · June 23, 2012 8:55AM

<< They have seller protection similar to eBay, I you invoice directly through PayPal. >>

PayPal's seller protection pays if a buyer claims non-delivery and the seller has proof (delivery/signature confirmation) of delivery. It does not pay if the package is lost or damaged.

mrpotatoheadd · June 23, 2012 9:16AM

<< As to the CN22 customs declaration..., as long as the contents is described, the declared valuecan be anything that a seller deems it to be. >>

According to a Canada Customs supervisor who used to post on another eBay related message board some time ago, this is incorrect as far as shipments to Canada. Their policy as explained by the poster is that shippers who do not declare values realistically risk having their packages delayed while customs determines a realistic value before releasing the package for delivery or having the packages returned to the shipper. Customs keeps a record of shippers who underdeclare, and worst case, will simply have their shipments refused and returned to them with no attempt at delivery.

<< BTW, it is a perfect legal declaration to declare a dollar coin as $1 value. >>

Suppose I sell you a Canadian 1948 silver dollar, you request that I value it at $1 on the customs form and it gets lost. Are you going to be satisfied with a refund of $1?

tewcd · June 23, 2012 9:52AM

I read the language of the release, and at the time I thought it covered any package that was sent with tracking, regardless of whether it was lost or not. I may be mis-remembering, though, or conflating it with Ebay's.

Andres · June 23, 2012 9:57AM

I think the buyer is worried , he wants his coin as soon as possible.
does the buyer knows, it is in customs ?

I never put values on enveloppes containing coins or paper currency,
I do send them Priority airmail signed for , and never insure the stuff.

Ever tried to get your money back from insurance ? filling out forms, and end up with headaches, no thanks.
If you put a considerable value on a package , it can be stolen by someone in the long,long line of transport to your buyer,
and I believe its nobody's business whats inside the enveloppe, I send to my customers.

I want happy customers, and that does mean quick arrivals without delays, and without extra charges from customs.

just my 2 cents.

mrpotatoheadd · June 23, 2012 10:03AM

From PayPal:

PayPal Seller protection is protection we provide Sellers from Claims, Chargebacks, or Reversals that are based on:

•Unauthorized Transaction or
•Item Not Received

To be eligible for PayPal Seller protection, you must meet all of the basic requirements listed below under (a) Basic Requirements. To be covered for Item Not Received protection, you must meet both the Basic Requirements and the Item Not Received Additional Requirements listed below under (b).

Basic Requirements:

•You must ship the item to the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page.
•You must respond to PayPal's requests for documentation and other information in a timely manner.
•The item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped.
•Your primary residence, as listed in your Account, must be in the United States.

b. Item Not Received Additional Requirements:

•For Chargebacks, the payment must be marked “eligible” or “partially eligible” for PayPal Seller protection on the Transaction Details Page.
•You must provide Proof of Delivery as described below in Section 11.4.
•It is recommended that you ship the item within 7 Days of receipt of payment. Or, if the payment is for pre-ordered or made-to-order goods, shipment is required within the timeframe specified in your item listing.

"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

•The item’s status as delivered.
•The date the item is delivered.
•The recipient address is the same as in the shipping address section on the Transaction Details Page.
•The recipient's address, showing at least the city & state, or city & country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).

According to this, PayPal will not pay on a claim of non-delivery for a package that never makes it to the intended destination.

tewcd · June 23, 2012 10:14AM

Ah, so you're right! I only briefly scanned it. You know, the UCC theoretically would allow us to condition all merchandise sold and shipped by common carrier (UPS, USPS, FedEx, etc) as "delivered" upon handing it over to the common carrier for delivery. That's how the law would operate in most US states, at least, taking risk of loss out of the seller's hands. Funny how PayPal doesn't follow the same logic. Its their policy, though, they can make it as restrictive as they'd like. Still stinks.

mrpotatoheadd · June 23, 2012 10:19AM

<< That's how the law would operate in most US states, at least, taking risk of loss out of the seller's hands. Funny how PayPal doesn't follow the same logic. >>

eBay/PayPal don't want buyers to be unhappy- period. Sellers, not so much. So- eBay/PayPal policies are fashioned to achieve this goal.

YQQ · June 23, 2012 1:29PM

Mr Potatoehead..
Delivery means that the seller has proof the item is delivered to the Transportation company and has been accepted for transport.. i. e. post office.
It does NOT mean delivered to the recipient!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is exactly WHY Paypal who is 100% owned by Feebay, requires you to have PROOF OF DELIVERY to the transport co. that means you have delivered the goods as required!
the tracking or registration number is what they want!
if the item does NOT get to the recipient , Paypal Insurance will refund cost of the item and shipping cost to the buyer, provided all other stipulations are met.
these are facts.... happened to me recently!
Customs: CBA does NOT keep track of what one declares on a CN22 sticker!
They will keep a record over shipments over $ 400, as there is a different declaration required!
AND, if you have a close look at the CN 22 form, Yes, it would be truthful if you declare a $ 1 coin as a Value $1.
such a declaration could and would not even be legally challenged. Again, the shipment might not even involve a sale of any goods..
to me the dollar may be worth 50, but you were willing to pay 150. so, what would you declare it as?????
and seriously, customs does not care as long as you are reasonable.
and one more thing which I have heard many times: it is NONE of the post offices business what the mail contains. You do not need to tell them that coins are inside!
the CN22 sticker, and others , clearly state that it may NOT contain dangerous or prohibited goods.
That declaration you must sign...
the fewer people know, the less chance of it getting "lost".

mrpotatoheadd · June 23, 2012 2:02PM

<< Delivery means that the seller has proof the item is delivered to the Transportation company and has been accepted for transport.. i. e. post office. It does NOT mean delivered to the recipient!!!!!!!!!!!! >>

What I C&P'd above came directly from PayPal's website. Everybody is free to believe what they will.

<< That is exactly WHY Paypal who is 100% owned by Feebay, requires you to have PROOF OF DELIVERY to the transport co. that means you have delivered the goods as required! >>

That's an interesting interpretation.

<< if the item does NOT get to the recipient , Paypal Insurance will refund cost of the item and shipping cost to the buyer, provided all other stipulations are met. >>

Of course they will. And the seller will be on the hook for the loss.

<< Yes, it would be truthful if you declare a $ 1 coin as a Value $1. >>

You didn't answer my question on this. Suppose you paid me $1000 for a 1948 dollar, I declared a value of $1 at your request, the package was lost and I refunded $1 to you as your declared value. Would you be satisfied?

<< and one more thing which I have heard many times: it is NONE of the post offices business what the mail contains. You do not need to tell them that coins are inside! >>

Customs forms are pretty clear- you have to declare what's in the package. From the USPS website:

123.7 Completing Customs Forms

A sender must complete PS Form 2976, Customs Declaration CN 22 — Sender’s Declaration.

Check the appropriate box to indicate whether the package contains a gift, documents, commercial samples, or other items.
In block (1), provide a detailed description, in English, of each article and the quantity for each article. General descriptions such as “food,” “medicine,” “gifts,” or “clothing” are not acceptable. In addition to the English text, a translation in another language is permitted.
In block (4), declare the value of each article in U.S. dollars.
Note: The sender may declare that the contents have no value. However, declaring that the contents have no value does not exempt an item from customs examination or charges in the destination country.

YQQ · June 23, 2012 2:30PM

I suggest you read the complete post and not just bits and pieces.
am not entering into a if and but match here.
You are in the erroneous assumption that everything shipped and declared require a sale and that that sale is "law" as far a dec is concerned.
the declaration has absolutely NOTHING to do with the sale!
I am law abiding person in every respect. But just as the law takes advantage of us, we can also take advantage of it.
Your example: if the 48 does not get there, all Paypal wants is proof of shipping! NOT what you put on the green sticker!
They have all information about the sale.
I could spin this further with you, but will not.
it is actually very simple:
you believe what you believe.
I know what I know.
you do it your way, and I do it my way.
Previous experiences clearly indicate facts.

good luck

mrpotatoheadd · June 23, 2012 3:08PM

<< I suggest you read the complete post and not just bits and pieces. >>

I read your post.

<< You are in the erroneous assumption that everything shipped and declared require a sale and that that sale is "law" as far a dec is concerned. >>

I never claimed such a thing.

<< the declaration has absolutely NOTHING to do with the sale! >>

Based on the USPS website customs form instructions I C&P'd, I imagine that could be interpreted differently than you have described.

<< Your example: if the 48 does not get there, all Paypal wants is proof of shipping! >>

Not according to the PayPal website. Here you go:

"Proof of Delivery" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

•The item’s status as delivered.
•The date the item is delivered.
•The recipient address is the same as in the shipping address section on the Transaction Details Page.
•The recipient's address, showing at least the city & state, or city & country, or zip/postal code (or international equivalent).

<< NOT what you put on the green sticker! >>

I never claimed that PayPal cared about the customs form.

You still haven't answered my question: Suppose you paid me $1000 for a 1948 dollar, I declared a value of $1 at your request, the package was lost and I refunded $1 to you as your declared value. Would you be satisfied?

YQQ · June 24, 2012 1:26AM

last post...
it will NOT be you who makes the refund to me the buyer.
It will be paypal. I will get the full amount including shipping cost from Paypal.

Again, you do not seem to, ot not want to, understand the term delivery in this case.
it simply means proof that seller has delivered to the carrier and can proof it in form of a tracking number.
period, done, no more.

tewcd · June 24, 2012 1:39AM

Deleted by Author

YQQ · June 24, 2012 2:16AM

BUT, did you ship it in accordance with PP regulation -seller protection?
did you have a tracking number? AND did you get proof that the shipment was delivered to the actual buyer and not just an address?
personally, for the few shipments I send , I do require the signature of the actual recipient. It costs a dollar more.
AND.. i never send to anyone in many countries where corruption is the business of the day.
i would never, for example, send anything to Korea or anywhere in Asia, Eastern Europe, Africa, South America and a few other regions.
In my ebay conditions, it clearly indicates that a buyer must choose the method of transportation suitable for his needs.
I.e. buyer has a choice of either paying for registered mail to be covered by Paypal or by regular mail without coverage. I have a disclaimer placing responsibility for any loss on the buyer. (he selects his method)
I still maintain the best method is to send by regular and simple mail. Have never lost anything that way.

TwoKopeiki · June 24, 2012 2:56AM

Doug, have you had a chance to use the Spanish Post system to check the status as per my post?

mrpotatoheadd · June 24, 2012 3:52AM

<< last post...
it will NOT be you who makes the refund to me the buyer.
It will be paypal. I will get the full amount including shipping cost from Paypal. >>

Ok- so you appear to want the seller to underdeclare the value of the item then, knowing that in the event of a loss, you will be fully reimbursed? Nice.

<< Again, you do not seem to, ot not want to, understand the term delivery in this case.
it simply means proof that seller has delivered to the carrier and can proof it in form of a tracking number.
period, done, no more. >>

What you have described is proof of shipping, which is not the same thing as proof of delivery. The PayPal seller protection policy requires proof of delivery, not proof of shipping. If you don't believe the stuff I C&P'd above, go to their site and read it for yourself. You are doing a disservice to everybody reading this thread by claiming otherwise.

mrpotatoheadd · June 24, 2012 4:04AM

And regarding customs forms and claimed values, here is what Canada Border Services Agency says about shipping to Canada:

Importing by Mail
Your Requirements as a Sender

If you are mailing goods to Canada, you must make a proper declaration in order to enable border services officers to accurately assess the goods.

You do this by completing Form CN23, Customs Declaration Form or Form CN22, Customs Declaration Form. On these forms, you must provide
the following:

•your complete name and address;
•the recipient’s complete name and address; and
•a detailed description of the contents of the parcel along with its value and country of origin.

If these requirements are not met, the parcel may be returned to you.

If you paid $1000 for a $1 coin and expect to be reimbursed that $1000 if it is lost, the declared value is most certainly not $1. As a shipper, I am not going to risk difficulties with your country's customs office by misrepresenting the value of the items I'm shipping. If you have a problem with customs fees, take it up with officials in your country- it's not my problem.

Zohar · June 24, 2012 7:53AM

My problem is that paypal supersedes ebay. You can agree to non insured shipping and get nailed by paypal with buyer always being protected.

illini420 · June 29, 2012 3:47AM

Any update??? Or are you still feeling dismal???

DougDismal · June 29, 2012 8:47AM

Found more comprehensive tracking on the Spanish mail site Correos than I did on the USPS. Thanks!

Sending a Coin off to Spain (Stuck in Spanish Customs)

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