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Differentiating Singular and Universal Eye Appeal
earlyrarecoins
Posts: 65
Lots of numismatic talk is concerned with the eye appeal of a coin. And in many circumstances, the value of a coin is a function of eye appeal (among other things). There are actually three types of statements that apply to eye appeal: Singular, Particular, and Universal.
If the context of your message or your words does not supply the receiver with sufficient information to determine which category your statement falls into, he may not be able to conceptualize what you are saying.
I say to you "this coin has great eye appeal, I would offer $250 for it." If we assume this is a possible sample of market value, we still cannot determine what the conditions are when the market value is determined. Do I mean that the coin is eye appealing to me? Do I mean the coin is eye appealing to most people? Do I mean the coin is eye appealing to most people, but not me? Do I mean that the coin is eye appealing to most people, and me? Do I mean the coin is eye appealing to all people? Each one of these situations can potentially bring about a different value for a given coin.
But without sufficient context, I might misinterpret your statement. There is a more vicious phenomenon: If I believe a coin is eye appealing, I am relatively more likely to believe that others will also believe the coin is eye appealing, the key term is relative. At an auction, I may believe that everyone would find this coin eye appealing, so I place an unusually high bid. A couple others do as well, believing the same thing. But could it not be that my beliefs were false? In reality, perhaps very few people find the coin eye appealing. Perhaps this new market value data is not as valuable as we think it is.
Is it even possible to distinguish betwen singular and universal ideas of eye appeal? If I say that tree is beautiful, do I subconsciously believe that others find it beautiful as well? Or can I formulate an idea in my head that gives an approximate percent of people that would find it appealing?
You can see the difficulty and complexity involved when dealing with eye appeal and prices. And I hope we can discuss this further.
If the context of your message or your words does not supply the receiver with sufficient information to determine which category your statement falls into, he may not be able to conceptualize what you are saying.
I say to you "this coin has great eye appeal, I would offer $250 for it." If we assume this is a possible sample of market value, we still cannot determine what the conditions are when the market value is determined. Do I mean that the coin is eye appealing to me? Do I mean the coin is eye appealing to most people? Do I mean the coin is eye appealing to most people, but not me? Do I mean that the coin is eye appealing to most people, and me? Do I mean the coin is eye appealing to all people? Each one of these situations can potentially bring about a different value for a given coin.
But without sufficient context, I might misinterpret your statement. There is a more vicious phenomenon: If I believe a coin is eye appealing, I am relatively more likely to believe that others will also believe the coin is eye appealing, the key term is relative. At an auction, I may believe that everyone would find this coin eye appealing, so I place an unusually high bid. A couple others do as well, believing the same thing. But could it not be that my beliefs were false? In reality, perhaps very few people find the coin eye appealing. Perhaps this new market value data is not as valuable as we think it is.
Is it even possible to distinguish betwen singular and universal ideas of eye appeal? If I say that tree is beautiful, do I subconsciously believe that others find it beautiful as well? Or can I formulate an idea in my head that gives an approximate percent of people that would find it appealing?
You can see the difficulty and complexity involved when dealing with eye appeal and prices. And I hope we can discuss this further.
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how i see it numismatics outgrew descriptions importance..."show me" tha coin...my home states credo
back in tha ol daze
descriptions were common place....pictures were flat and mostly black n white low res
but to what you're after here
i can see clarifying a lil on eye appeal's nature if you are so inclined
a coin with eye appeal any colorful toner lover would love<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<particular
a coin with eye appeal preserved in original mint state color<<<<<<<<<<<<<<particular
a coin with eye appeal that only some would appreciate it's unique toning<<<<particular
a coin with eye appeal of being a plate coin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<closest to universal
not really sure of an example of singluar though
myself for one (ex-aerospace machinist) lived in a world of perfectionism for way too long...it's over-rated
i now strive for the simplistic beauty of life
so something just as this thread
confuses me
the world of coins truly need not be so complex
anymore
just show me the coin...a good enough image and i've no need for a return policy...images are that great today
i'll close with this
the only eye appeal however worded it maybe that matters is mine...if i'm the buyer
as to if i'm the seller...always best to let buyer agree with an in-hand assessment i say
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
eric
<< <i> I would argue that common understanding of "eye appeal" can occur only among individuals with a considerable history of communication with one another around those common interests. A great example might be this message board. >>
I would disagree. IMO, one of the best gauges of 'universal' eye appeal is to show the coin to a non-collector and get their opinion.
merse
I guess if are told over and over that something is pretty and desirable that you eventually grow to believe that it is pretty and desirable. If a coin with a certain look is deemed to fetch a premium I think that looks ends up being the definition of eye appeal.
<< <i>The OP is pretty interesting. Habermas (1981) argues that negotiated and shared semiotic understanding is a product of communicative action. Through frequent communication, shared understanding arises. Individuals in an online social systems cluster around common interests (interest-based homophily). I would argue that common understanding of "eye appeal" can occur only among individuals with a considerable history of communication with one another around those common interests. A great example might be this message board. >>
Is that like friending with numismatic benefits?
Based on a major dynamic of the social system modeled, Metz would certainly agree and Bahktin likely would too. Chomsky will be distracted by the tertiary level of Ur-subtext
Jung would offer insight into cross-cultural archetypes and the process of unconscious negotiation of societal norms and their subsequent acceptance as paradigms suggesting a cohesively structured system of consensual reality whose underlying dynamics are assumed to be actual when actually essentially ineffable.
Robin Williams will ultimately clarify.
Semiotics......
Expectations, taste, desiribility and attraction changes within a society. It even changes within a single person with time.
The only way to accurately gague this type of thing is with a poll. The larger the test group the more accurate the statement becomes. You can try to predict it, but honestly you can't always get it right.
That said, there are perhaps some collectors that absolutely love or hate a certain type of toning. They would be biased.
It would be hard for me to imagine a coin with truly universal appeal. I have shown my avatar coin to many small cent collectors, and on more than one occasion have heard that it could be the single prettiest IHC. But showing it to a non-collector, it's at best a 50/50 as to whether or not they think it's pretty at all.
I collect superb gem type proof cents. They are rockstars on the bourse floor, but to a non-collector, well, I have heard that they just look like a bunch of little brown raisins. "Pearls before swine", my brother once said.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
In my first foray into this subject I ranked the eye appeal of colorfully-toned Matte Proof Lincolns based on a consensus vote of a number of experts and top registry set owners. It was interesting to me how much of a spread there was in the votes, and I wonder if I should have not only posted the rank but also given stats on the standard deviation of the consensus ranks. However, there clearly were coins that most would agree were eye appealing in a more general sense since some coins were ranked high by nearly all the voting participants.
100 Greatest Matte Proof Lincolns
In my second foray into this subject I wanted to see if I could come up with a more "objective" system where coins were graded on specific well-defined categories and then ranked based on the total scores. This second system I named the "Flash Index". However, this (hopefully) more objective system, still relies on "subjective scoring" in particular categories -- so it's not close to being perfect by any sense of the word!
As the "guinea pig series" for experimenting with the Flash Index, I used colorfully-toned Mirror Proof Lincolns as a test-bed.
100 Greatest Mirror Proof Lincolns
In any case, this second system also seemed to give fairly good results where coins that ranked higher in the system appeared to be more universally eye appealing. For example, this 1954 Lincoln was by far the most eye appealing Mirror Proof Lincoln that I have ever found, achieving a near perfect "Flash Index" score of 9.8 (out of a perfect 10.0) ... and most collectors would probably agree that the coin is indeed "eye appealing" in a more universal way:
I do wonder if this same sort of "eye appeal" separation could be done with mint-fresh red colored copper or mint-fresh white silver. I think in this case, making this sort of eye appeal separation might be more difficult to fine tune and might turn out to be most closely approximated through a simple ranking by PCGS grade? (Since most mint fresh red copper coins or white silver coins might look much more similar at the same PCGS grade level). However I have never delved into that, so I cannot speak of that with any sort of experience or insight.
In any case, the whole topic of eye appeal is really difficult to quantify as ultimately Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder -- just like art -- it's hard to objectify beauty.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Rainbow bag stripes like on a 81S Morgan; must also have booming lustre.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
<< <i>that's some depth there
how i see it numismatics outgrew descriptions importance..."show me" tha coin...my home states credo
back in tha ol daze
descriptions were common place....pictures were flat and mostly black n white low res
but to what you're after here
i can see clarifying a lil on eye appeal's nature if you are so inclined
a coin with eye appeal any colorful toner lover would love<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<particular
a coin with eye appeal preserved in original mint state color<<<<<<<<<<<<<<particular
a coin with eye appeal that only some would appreciate it's unique toning<<<<particular
a coin with eye appeal of being a plate coin<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<closest to universal
not really sure of an example of singluar though
myself for one (ex-aerospace machinist) lived in a world of perfectionism for way too long...it's over-rated
i now strive for the simplistic beauty of life
so something just as this thread
confuses me
the world of coins truly need not be so complex
anymore
just show me the coin...a good enough image and i've no need for a return policy...images are that great today
i'll close with this
the only eye appeal however worded it maybe that matters is mine...if i'm the buyer
as to if i'm the seller...always best to let buyer agree with an in-hand assessment i say >>
Well put my friend!! Now take a look at "winged Liberty's" coins, Now here's a collector that has GREAT taste in coins. I find all of this man coins VERY pretty and "eye appealing" Robec is another who has some very good taste in coins. I could go on and on with some board memebers here that know what eye appeal is all about. Sooooo, I would say they have universal eye appeal. As I don't think "Ricko" would agree but most of the rest of us would. So is there such a thing as "Universal" eye appeal because of Ricko? LOL Just sayin.....Joe
Chomsky was at the University the other day, but I didn't get to meet him. Maybe next time.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
by definition...universal...probably breaks down to one for all...or close...so loss of one voids the uni part
i would think better term of "a happy medium of eye appeal"
have you seen "stewart blay copper"...i'm sure ricko loves it too...put me in this crowd too...stewart could name a few on his heels...prices reflect something
his 1919 in ms69 is astounding...the plate coin i was talking about...but to an avid toner only collector...there is a 1919 toner they'd vote for instead...maybe my plate coin statement finds dis-taste to more then one...in the end...WHO AM I...or anyone else to speak for others
maybe stewart will drop in and give us his "candid feelings" on the 100 greatest sites or any other "red only" copper collector...if we could even get them to look at such a thing...are we even being respectful to them as people in even asking
op desired some discussion...truly...i've tossed about all i can here and yes joe...you're in the not one but two xmas cards crowd
as is stewart
i still have a signed copy of his red collection pamphlet pcgs did for him noting...he tossed in..."go red in 2009 ted"
every side of these fences hold true treasures
i think the only universal collector i could think of is...
a person who collects all coins us n foreign by throwing um in coffee cans...saying proudly...i collect coins...all i get in change...they're right there in my coffee cans...and i likes um all...
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
It's a shame the pics had to go.
Is your reference to "eye appeal" limited to "natural" or "artificially enhanced" eye appeal? ....or does it even matter in this dissertation?
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