Bought a problem 1640 Daalder on a whim

Peacemonkey

I just couldnt take my eyes off of this coin despite the obvious "probem" of having a major chunk taken out of it. The choclate silver look is sooo hard to pass up and maybe this will spark an interest in the series for me. Love the design and every other collecting niche ive gotten into started with a problem coin so. Can anyone confirm its authenticity for me? Thanks.

Dennis88

Looks good to me. Province of Utrecht.

Dennis

Peacemonkey

Thanks. I am going to pretend the damage to the coin was done by a knight's sword in battle.

EVillageProwler

OT: Why do folks have different handles between here and ATS (mumu)?

EVillageProwler

<< <i>OT: Why do folks have different handles between here and ATS (mumu)? >>



Actually, there's a 'mumu' here as well. Shill account? Was there a bamming?

Andres

Looks OK to me, its a testcut to confirm its solid silver , Liontalers are the first coins struck by the independent Netherlands , first ones introduced in 1575 by the province of Holland, there was a 10 cents extra charge
the first years they were issued, that was to pay for the struggle against Spain in the war of independance , which lasted 80 years.

issued by all 7 dutch provinces between 1575 - 1676. Also copied in other countries , because it was a well known trade Taler both in the Baltic and the Mediterrane area, your coin might be a contemporary silver copy coin,
since it has akward lions, both in the little shield of the knight and on the reverse. (it also looks like a double struck)

compare:








should weigh around 27, 7 Gram - silver contence 750/1000 - average diameter 41mm - dutch name: Leeuwendaalder

text around the knight: Silver money of the United Netherlands - TRA = Trajectum = province of Utrecht
text around the (dutch) Lion: He who trusts in the Lord, will have no fear.

most of the Liontalers are in rough shape , minted in enormous quantities to pay for the trade overseas.
the silver used for these coins came from Spain in the form of cobs struck in Mexico, which were often stolen at sea by dutch kapers = pirates wich an official license from the dutch government.

great coins for collecting, hundreds & hundreds of different types.

Andres

Peacemonkey

Thanks Andres. Contemprorary copy? How can I be sure. If legit is the double strike of any added value? The test cut would surely keep it from grading beyond details im sure?

Peacemonkey

<< <i>

<< <i>OT: Why do folks have different handles between here and ATS (mumu)? >>



Actually, there's a 'mumu' here as well. Shill account? Was there a bamming? >>



Go watch the Kardashians if you are so worried about people. Im here for the coins.

Andres

Apart of the double strike, If its a contemporary copy coin, its worth much more then an original coin. The ones I've seen , bring 5 - 10 times the value of the original,
depending how rare the copy coin is.
With so many types around, only an expert collector can say what it exactly is.
If you like I can ask around.
Andres

Peacemonkey

<< <i>Apart of the double strike, If its a contemporary copy coin, its worth much more then an original coin. The ones I've seen , bring 5 - 10 times the value of the original,
depending how rare the copy coin is.
With so many types around, only an expert collector can say what it exactly is.
If you like I can ask around.
Andres >>



Sure if it doesnt put you out much time. Would the assayers sample affect it much? It affects the weight obviously. Is the assay marking seen more in contemporaries? I dont know what to root for here now. Id like an original for my collection but at 10x potential value the contemporary is a no brainer...

Andres

The testcut shouldn't affect the weight , by the way, what is the weight ??
probably the guy who made the testcut , also had doubts about the coin, I never seen such a big testcut on one of these talers.
I send the images to somebody who has more knowledge about these coins.

Peacemonkey

Thanks. Seller listed weight as 26.7 grams

worldcoinguy

I like it. Whims are a good thing in numismatics.....90% of my collection can be traced to a whim at some point in time.

Dennis88

Andres & Peacemonkey,

The so-called doubling of the letters is found frequently on (I would even say on the majority of) Lion Dollars. I am not 100% what causes it, but it is most likely some sort of strike doubling. Most of my Lion Dollars have it in one way or the other. These were produced in large quantities on silver planchets of generally mediocre quality; there are a few so-called presentation pieces known that are among the best produced, and also the only ones that had fully round planchets to begin with. Extensive circulation throughout the world, clipping, and further damage have led to many, many ugly examples.

The coin posted here is a genuine example that matches the dies for this year (which, btw, is one of the most, if not the most common year for Utrecht) and is without doubt an original striking and not a contemporary nor modern copy. It is weakly struck, however, which has resulted in the lower half and tongue of the Lion on the obverse no longer visible (although with some fantasy part of the tongue is visible). The Lion dollars of Utrecht always have a different appearance from the other provinces. One has to remember that they are (technically) all copies of the original design as introduced in Holland in 1576. In the 125 years that Lion dollars were produced the design itself did not change at all, but all the mints experimented with minor differences, even though they had to confirm with the set design.

The copies Andres is speaking of are very interesting and most likely originated from the east. Here is a website with several images. Note that all examples (and all that I have seen) have variations of the legends on both obverse and reverse; unlike the coin posted here, that is one of the key points of the contemporary copies known to exist.

Andres, Lion Dollars were struck as late as 1700 or 1701. See the rare 1700/1699 Gelderland as an example. I do not have my catalogs or notes with me but I think there are a few more 18th century dated issues as well.

Anyway, Lion Dollars are among my favorite Dutch series because of their importance in history. In fact, I'm collecting data right now which I hope to release as a book at some point in the future. Since we are posting pictures here, I bought this last week, a Half Lion Dollar struck in Friesland, 1599 (with titles of Holland). Half Lion Dollars are much scarcer, as are those from Friesland, with relatively few known dates. This is one of the most difficult types of Lion Dollars and half Lion Dollars that exist and of each date less than half a dozen are known to exist (according to my research, auction appearances are scarce). Delmonte did not originally list this date, but did list it in his supplement released a few years later. He gave it a rarity of R-4, which in his book (and in Dutch numismatics in general) is right below unique, meaning 2-3 known. The only known examples that he knew of were two in museums. I believe that there are a few more, but its still an extremely difficult date.




Dennis

Zohar

good thread. Very crude pieces for the era when compared with Holy Roman Empire pieces - didn't the Dutch have comparable technology?

Peacemonkey

Thanks Dennis for the added info. These are an awesome issue.

Andres

Here's a Liondaalder from Utrecht 1640 that I consider a standard coin from that mint for that year


I'm not 100% shure about the coin from Peacemonkey , I hope to get an answer tomorrow.
the obvious copies are ofcause the ones with different slogans, that doesn't mean there are no copies with the correct slogans.
nice link to the copy coins of the east , but many were made in Italy .

Yes, your right, Dennis, some provinces kept minting them untill 1713 in low volumes.

Zohar , the dutch had no king or emperor as of 1575, so there was no need for minting nice portrait coins, and they were the last country in Europe to start minting with a balance press,
so no real beauties were struck overhere , at least nothing that can match the Habsburger coins.
there was however a private mint in Enkhuizen owned by Dirck Bosch , he produced beautifull silver ducats and silver riders.

Peacemonkey

So the lion in Andres' photo is a mature looking lion while the one in my coin is a young looking lion. Almost has a bear look to it around the head.

Dennis88

It will be interesting to see what your sources say...it looks fine to me, just weakly struck. The coin you posted is a great coin of a different variety (with the lion on the reverse having a cross on his body) that is much better struck and on a better planchet as well; you can't really compare the two IMHO.

The copies...the Italian ones are indeed very interesting and have the different "Latin" legends (even though most don't make sense) on them as do the ones I posted. The last Schulman auction had two as well, with estimates starting at EUR 400 I believe. Not sure if they sold or not, I think at least one of them had in fact two different dates on the obverse and reverse, which made it one weird copy. As for other contemporary copies...I'm not sure as to how to identify them. Let me know if you have any sources.

Dennis

Peacemonkey

I am not seeing the "young" looking lion on any provice issues for any year including the Utrecht.

Dennis88

<< <i>I am not seeing the "young" looking lion on any provice issues for any year including the Utrecht. >>



Like I said, it's the result of a weak strike. Look at the area below the lion's head...you can still see part of the lower part of its mouth.

I do like the young lion vs old lion discussion here, lol.

Dennis

Peacemonkey

<< <i>

<< <i>I am not seeing the "young" looking lion on any provice issues for any year including the Utrecht. >>



Like I said, it's the result of a weak strike. Look at the area below the lion's head...you can still see part of the lower part of its mouth.

I do like the young lion vs old lion discussion here, lol.

Dennis >>



OK so its missing the tongue AND the lower jaw and therefore creating the young lion illusion.

Peacemonkey

When did assaying such as this start? Is it safe to speculate its a very old assaying seeing as the color inside of the assay crater appears uniform with the rest of the coin?

Dennis88

<< <i>When did assaying such as this start? Is it safe to speculate its a very old assaying seeing as the color inside of the assay crater appears uniform with the rest of the coin? >>



It probably was sent overseas shortly after its striking, where it was assayed at some point. Judging by the overall appearance of the coin it did not circulate very long...no more than a few decades. It's anyone's guess where the coin has been in the last 350 years...but I would say that yes, because of the color and the overall appearance, it was probably assayed well over 200 years ago. Anything could have happened with the coin though, and we have to remember that we are just speculating.

Dennis

Peacemonkey

OK so youre saying Benjamin Franklin assayed the coin over 200 years ago. Got it. I will put that on ebay description when I resell it.

Seriously though thanks for all the info. I am now intrigued by this series and will only become morese I think when in hand. Time to start looking at slabbed AU examples

Dennis88

<< <i>OK so youre saying Benjamin Franklin assayed the coin over 200 years ago. Got it. I will put that on ebay description when I resell it.

Seriously though thanks for all the info. I am now intrigued by this series and will only become morese I think when in hand. Time to start looking at slabbed AU examples >>



Here you go (one of the best slabbed AU's I've ever seen).

Peacemonkey

<< <i>

<< <i>OK so youre saying Benjamin Franklin assayed the coin over 200 years ago. Got it. I will put that on ebay description when I resell it.

Seriously though thanks for all the info. I am now intrigued by this series and will only become morese I think when in hand. Time to start looking at slabbed AU examples >>



Here you go (one of the best slabbed AU's I've ever seen). >>



What a sweet coin. Now that I can see all the details I can see how the missing jaw creates the young lion effect.

Andres

update: I didn't hear anything sofar from my friend ""The Liondaalder expert""
I agree with Dennis on the weakly struck part of the lower jaw of the lion on this coin.
but I still find it an akward coin: testcut, double struck and also weak struck, that funny looking lion in the small shield,
I'm sure I will get a definitive answer soon from my friend.
In the mean time I can post some coins from my collection
here's my oldest Liondaalder:

Peacemonkey

Thanks Andres. I need to find a good book on coins that circulated in the US colonies and during the dutch days. I find it very interesting. I think I may focus a small part of my collection on crown sized coins that circulated. This one makes a good starter coin for that.

Peacemonkey

So I'm pretty sure the answer is yes but the assayers mark would keep this from salbbing right? Its not looked upon in the same way as a chopmark correct? It is PMD and unslabbable as a US coin would be?

Peacemonkey

OK I initially thought Andres was saying the main Lion was the different charateristics but I see now he meant the shield lion. And I do see some differences there when comparing to another Utrecht Daalder I. I have outlined some of the differences I spotted myself. I realize weak strike and wear can affect the shapes as we see with the "young lion" effect but I think the ones I highlighted are design differences. I dont know enough about the strike and design process so maybe they are explained very easily but here is what I see:

Dennis88

The dies were engraved by hand and each one is distinctively different. Comparisons are impossible to make, even coins of the same year an province will have large differences from die to die.

I don't know why Andres believes the coin is double struck...it clearly is not.

And yes, this is PMD and the coin will not slab because of it.

Dennis

Andres

The diemaker who made the die(s) for this coin must have been an apprentice at best.
Here's another coin from the Utrecht mint:

Peacemonkey

The lion on the shield of that one looks a lot more like the lion in the one I bought.

Andres

Got an answer from my friend, he wants to inspect your Leeuwendaalder in hand,
nwahh , the positive thing , he works for the best auctionhouse in the Netherlands , so if its something special
it can be auctioned overhere at : MPO auctions

I think your coin has an akward lion in the shield of the knight, nothing that looks , like any of the ones I showed you.

another coin from my collection: