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Rare Mint State Lincoln Varieties @ Stacks Bowers June Sale

Wanted to give everyone a heads up that the "Hiwassee Lincoln Variety Collection" will be auctioned at the June Baltimore sale. Most of the mint state varieties will be in the Session 3 on Thursday evening June 28th. Another group of combined lots will sell in Session 1. Although I have removed the collection from the registry, I still have lots of pictures on photobucket. If anyone would like photos of a Lincoln/variety that they are interested in, please leave PM and I will see if I can locate. Been an enjoyable hobby, and
I will continue to participate. Haven't decided what I would like to do yet or with what series. Thanks to all for the commaradery and knowledge these past 7 years. Regards, Mel

Comments

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I enjoyed looking at them on Friday at Bowers. Which coin was your personal favorite?

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Wish I could view them in person but business will keep me elsewhere. Seeing that many quality varieties in one place is something I've always wanted to do, but it's also a little sad to see another big set dispersed. Is the 1917 from your set too? They didn't note a connection in the description.
    David
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    perfectstrike, I believe the 17 ddo was from earlier sale this spring. Very nice coin.
    wondercoin, I kept my favorite of the set, an 09-s fs-1501 in 65rb. The next is probably the 34 ddo as it is the coin that James Wiles used to attribute and is now an official CONECA recognized variety. The specimen at auction is the earliest die strike of the 5 PCGS graded/attributed examples. I've handled all five and feel this variety is on par with
    the 72 ddo-4 with regards to rarity. Did you have a favorite among them??

    image
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    image >>



    Where's the doubled die???
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Where's the doubled die???"

    Just the remains of the 3 and the 4 beneath.

    Mel ... hard to answer which was my favorite. I did hunt for a number of them (mostly unsuccessfully) for years/decades from my original rolls. It was just nice to see them all together and say to myself time and time again... "yep ... that is what I never found in my fresh rolls".

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TDN, Below is the description of what happened as per Wiles on the Variety Vista website.

    Description: Very strong spread Northwest and slight rotation with light hubbing as extra center high points of the 93 of the date. It appears that the offset was significant enough that the pressman realized it before applying much pressure and reset the hub on the die for its final hubbing.
    Reported by: Mel Pruitt

    Comments: FS-101 (013.79).
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see it - just some stray lines that one wants to believe are numbers but can't be. Can you show an overlay of how those numbers (3 & 4 or 9 & 3) line up?
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>"Where's the doubled die???"

    Just the remains of the 3 and the 4 beneath.


    Wondercoin >>




    Figments of imagination I do believe. The mind sees what it wants to see.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, the CPG 5th edition speaks of the remains being from "a secondary 3 and 4". But, Mel references comments of the remains being of the 9 and 3?

    I just enjoyed looking at the coins ... I have enough "problems" with my near 600 coin collection of Washington quarters with all the varieties (and what my mind is seeing with those)!!

    Wondercoin


    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TDN, You know what they say about opinions don't you?image
  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Among variety specialists, this is a legitimate variety and no "figment of imagination." Although not a dramatic doubled die like the '55, overlays clearly show that the digits are doubled and probably the widest spread in the cent's 103 year history.
    Let's not disparage another member's coin simply because it's not your thing. It has been studied and verified by the best in the hobby, and while everyone is certainly entitled to an opinion, offering a negative one while the OP is getting ready to auction off his collection which took many years to build is poor form.
    Best of luck on the sale, Mel. Hope your coins sell well and you enjoy a long and healthy retirement.

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1. I'm not disparaging anyone's coin. Wondercoin stated it's the remnants of a 3 and a 4, which it clearly isn't.

    2. Any other time period, this would have been called a re punched date. I'm just curious what leads one to call two stray lines below a date a doubled die?

    3. Subtle little insult aside, good luck with your sale.

    4. This *is* the Board to discuss things numismatic, not just tout one's wares is it not?
  • copperhuntercopperhunter Posts: 925 ✭✭✭
    I think the 1956 D/D FS-508 is somewhat similar in appearance to the 1934 DDO, except for there it is referred to as an RPM, whereas in the case of the 1934 it is referred to as a DDO. Nevertheless, Mel's 1934 DDO is a mighty fine coin for us variety collectors in the series! Good Luck with everything Mel!
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Going to lot viewing today. Will definitely look at most of these. Would have loved a chance at the one you decided to keep though!!!
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Wondercoin stated it's the remnants of a 3 and a 4, which it clearly isn't."

    Wondercoin quoted the CPG, page 101. Have we established that the CPG and my statement from it are "clearly" wrong? Lincoln variety experts please comment. Has the CPG been revised to correct a typo where this is actually the remains of the 9 and 3?

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>"Wondercoin stated it's the remnants of a 3 and a 4, which it clearly isn't."

    Wondercoin quoted the CPG, page 101. Have we established that the CPG and my statement from it are "clearly" wrong? Lincoln variety experts please comment. Has the CPG been revised to correct a typo where this is actually the remains of the 9 and 3?

    Wondercoin >>



    IMO, yes - clearly wrong. What spatial recognition that I do still have tells me that the curve of the '3' and the whatever of the '4' don't line up correctly to be possible.
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TDN, Once again, your entitled to your opinion. If you want to argue with someone, seek out Realone as he loves to argue as well. In my opinion, the Forum would be a
    much better place without the two of you stirring up $H!T all of the time. But again, that's just my opinion. Mel
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Questioning the validity of a designation is NOT stirring up crap
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>TDN, Once again, your entitled to your opinion. If you want to argue with someone, seek out Realone as he loves to argue as well. In my opinion, the Forum would be a
    much better place without the two of you stirring up $H!T all of the time. But again, that's just my opinion. Mel >>



    You know what they say about opinions....


  • The forum IS for these kinds of discussions, and I feel TDN has a legitimate question. I'm no variety specialist, but I had the same question when I looked at the close up image. Sure doesn't look remotely like the other well known double die cents(55,72,69-s). I think that is the point, nothing more.

    Jack


  • TrimeTrime Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭
    I agree with TDN on the images and interpretation. " Much ado about nothing" but the value is in the eyes of the buyer.
    Trime
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623
    It looks more like a 3 & 4 than the dime that a handful of people think is a overdate from almost a decade apart. That being said it doesn't look like a 3&4
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mel,

    Got to look at your coins earlier this week at the SoCal lot viewing at the Stacks/Bowers offices. Some really great coins in there for sure and will be bidding on at least a few of them.

    It did surprise me that some of your coins were grouped in bulk lots of 2 or more coins. Some of the groupings made some sense, but others didn't make any sense at all to me. Often I'd really want one of the coins in the group, but having to buy a couple of others that didn't interest me as much might prevent that from happening. I guess it surprised me since the catalog didn't seem that large for this auction and those group lots could have easily been sold individually. Is there some reason for these group lots that I may be missing???

    In any event, good luck with the sale and it was lots of fun to see so many cool varieties and other nice Lincolns in one viewing.

    image
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mike, Wasn't pleased to learn of the grouping of lots in Session 1. Had been led to believe that they would image and list singularly all lots that were valued at 250 or greater. As it turned out, the threshold was 500 which put a lot of nice 400+ coins in group lots. I have had to place reserves on all of the group lots to protect myself. After all, who is willing to pay for a 10-S in 65rb, when they have to buy a 1914 and a 1931-D in 65rb in the same lot? I'm very likely to end up with many of these lots not selling because of my reserve. But why give up nice coins for 50 or 60% of price guides? As if I didn't already know, it's not about the little guy!
  • dbemikedbemike Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭
    Ditto...didn't care for lot grouping myself either.

    Good Luck Mel, not only on your sale, but your retirement.
  • loro1rojoloro1rojo Posts: 266 ✭✭✭


    << <i>1. I'm not disparaging anyone's coin. Wondercoin stated it's the remnants of a 3 and a 4, which it clearly isn't.

    2. Any other time period, this would have been called a re punched date. I'm just curious what leads one to call two stray lines below a date a doubled die?

    3. Subtle little insult aside, good luck with your sale.

    4. This *is* the Board to discuss things numismatic, not just tout one's wares is it not? >>



    I hate to be rude, but I will be considering how rude you have been about this coin.

    1) It is remnants of a 3 and 4. The picture included in this thread is not completely clear so I can see how you may think that it's not a doubled die. However, take a copy of the CPG (which I assume you don't own one) and you will find a better picture of this variety, and you will see that it is in fact a doubled die.

    2) The fact that you say "this would have been called re punched date" goes to show that you don't know what you are talking about. Back in the day, doubling on the date was called a "re punched date" because the date was individually punched into each die. This all ended with the Lincoln cent, since the date was hubbed into the die with the rest of the design. Thus, this is a doubled die and not a "re-punched date."

    I find it very interesting that you seem to have no knowledge of this variety until now, and come out to say that this is clearly not a doubled die. What about you do some research before commenting about something you obviously know nothing about.
    -Gabe
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>1. I'm not disparaging anyone's coin. Wondercoin stated it's the remnants of a 3 and a 4, which it clearly isn't.

    2. Any other time period, this would have been called a re punched date. I'm just curious what leads one to call two stray lines below a date a doubled die?

    3. Subtle little insult aside, good luck with your sale.

    4. This *is* the Board to discuss things numismatic, not just tout one's wares is it not? >>



    I hate to be rude, but I will be considering how rude you have been about this coin.

    1) It is remnants of a 3 and 4. The picture included in this thread is not completely clear so I can see how you may think that it's not a doubled die. However, take a copy of the CPG (which I assume you don't own one) and you will find a better picture of this variety, and you will see that it is in fact a doubled die.

    2) The fact that you say "this would have been called re punched date" goes to show that you don't know what you are talking about. Back in the day, doubling on the date was called a "re punched date" because the date was individually punched into each die. This all ended with the Lincoln cent, since the date was hubbed into the die with the rest of the design. Thus, this is a doubled die and not a "re-punched date."

    I find it very interesting that you seem to have no knowledge of this variety until now, and come out to say that this is clearly not a doubled die. What about you do some research before commenting about something you obviously know nothing about. >>



    1) not according to the OP. It's a 9 and a 3 (which it could be - unlike the initial assertion of 3 and 4 which doesn't appear to line up to me). Make up your minds, guys!

    2) gee whiz - no kidding? (ie: don't assume what I do and do not know. In fact, I do know that the date was hubbed with the rest of the design. In fact, that's pretty much the basis of the entire discussion - where is the rest of the design???)

    Show me where I definitively said it was NOT a doubled die. I said its clearly not a 3 and a 4 and i stand by that - the layout is incorrect for those two numerals. And i asked for more evidence since I have never seen (until now) a coin called a doubled die based upon two stray lines with no evidence of doubling elsewhere. Still waiting on that instead of insults.
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So I was thinking of bidding on lot 123 to get that awesome 66+RB 1909 VDB, the ex. dbemike coin. Even though I thought the reserve was high and I would have to buy 2 coins that I didn't want as it was part of a group lot.

    However, there was no lot 122 printed in the catalog. But there was a lot 122 online. So when the auctioneer called lot 123... the bidding online was really for lot 122. And when lot 124 was called, the online bidding was for lot 123. Then then discovered the mistake after calling lot 125, while online showed 124... but instead of going back and redoing those few lots, they just started back up again at lot 124!!!! The asked the floor bidders if all was good, but us online folks never had a chance at those few lots... bummer!!!!!


    Edited to add that the auctioneer was also calling the wrong bidding amounts to the floor bidders for those lots as the folks on the computers were on the correct lot all along, but the auctioneer went off the catalog and called the wrong lot numbers. So when she called lot 123, the staring amounts being called and the bidding was for lot 122...what a mess, even though the floor bidder may have thought they were bidding on 123... hopefully the rest of the auction goes a little better!!


  • I'm glad I pre-bid on 2 lots. Couldn't get the live bidding app to run but a few seconds at a time. I was willing to bid up a few more when I didn't will some of the earlier lots.
    Maybe I'll have better luck with the next round.
    David
  • copperhuntercopperhunter Posts: 925 ✭✭✭
    Just wondering how the auction went. Did anyone pick up any nice pieces?
  • I'm happy with the ones coming my way. I won 2 of the mixed lots.
    1925S FS-101 EF40 an upgrade for my set
    1925S/S FS-501 EF40
    1927D/D FS-501 AU50
    1930S/S FS-501 MS64RB
    1938S/S FS-501 MS65RD an upgrade for my set
    1938S/S FS-502 MS65RD that I'll be taking offer on
    And one nice lot, 1943 FS-101 MS66. I've always wanted a variety from this year, now I've got one of the best.
    I bid silly money on another variety and wasn't even the underbidder :-(
    David
  • copperhuntercopperhunter Posts: 925 ✭✭✭
    Looks like you did pretty well. That '43 DDO is a mighty fine coin. I am looking for one myself.
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks to everyone that participated! Haven't counted yet, but I would guess I sold 55 to 60 percent of the lots. As mentioned above, the group lots were a tough sell, and I had strong reserves on the low pop varieties.
    Will be listing a few at a time on the BST at reduced prices. Congratulations to those that won Lincolns for their collections. imageRegards, Mel
  • Thanks for the opportunity to acquire some quality varieties. Looking forward to seeing what's still left. I know the BST works better than the B&M bidding software!
    David
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just a heads up that I have begun listing the unsold on the BST. Search keyword "Lincoln" if you don't see it. Plan on listing a few every week. PM me if you know I have something you would like. Mel
  • I should have never sold my 27 DDO in 64RD to Rich!
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rick, Rich who?
  • kevinjkevinj Posts: 972 ✭✭✭
    Just some notes, up through 1908, the date was punched manually into each working die by hand using a hand punch and mallet as the last stage in the creation of the working die. Mint marks were manually punched into the working dies until the mid-1990s.

    In 1909, the date was cut or punched into the master die. As the images on the master hub would have been raised, the date could not have been cut into it. During the earlier years after 1909, the same master hub was used for several years for a given denomination. I forget when, but at some period, the date was added to the Galvano and a new master hub was created every year.

    A doubled die occurs normally during the hubbing process, where as a working hub with a raised image of the design elements is placed opposite of a blank die with a coned top. It normally took several hubbings, especially for the larger dies to get the full image of the design elements incused into the working die. When metal is compressed, it hardens. Between hubbings, the working die was annealed to soften it. When it was placed back into the hubbing press, if the design elements of the working hub were not aligned with the earlier design elements of teh working die, then a secondary image could have been produced.

    Normally, the center design elements on the working die would be incused first as the top of the cone on the working die would make contact and start taking the shape of the design elements.

    There are other causes of doubling, each cause actually has its own classification. For example, if the working die was annealed to quickly, the design elements might have been spread outward slightly.

    In the Authoritative Reference on Lincoln Cents, Second Edition, which I coauthored with John Wexler, John calls this WDDO-006 and states this is a Class IV (Offset) and/or Class VIII (tilted) doubled die class. John states "An extremely wide spread on approximately the centers of the 9 and 3 is probably the result of an offset and strongly tilted hub or die. This is probably the widest separation of images for any Lincoln cent doubled die variety.

    In looking at the photos, it is obvious that the left image has a minor curve. On the 3 in the date, this would only match the bottom of the 3 in a tilted position forward, which if you did, would exclude a 4. Therefore, unless you claim that the two images were created independently, it cannot be the result of a 3 and 4. The 9 has a minor curve through most parts of the right side, but would only line up with the 3 from the middle.

    To get to this position, the working die or hub would either have to be offset and rotated or tilted. If this is a doubled die, it is more likely the result of tilting, as if it was rotated and/or offset, we should see other doubling around the coin.

    Of course, it also could be the result of damage to the working die, something dropped onto the working die, damage caused to the working die while cleaning, or something else which left an incused mark on the working die.

    In my opinion, there is not enough physical evidence for an absolute determination that this is the result of hub doubling or damage to the working die.

    Kevin
    Kevin J Flynn
  • "Rick, Rich who? "

    Notturno (i.e. Onrutton's Memorials).
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