. well i didn't say anything because i was hoping that if there are people that participate in counterfeiting that watch this forum and/or participate, they wouldn't be encouraged to do this but:
i've just gotten my first reports of genuine coins in non-genuine holders where the premise is to find a coin that looks like it may pass at a higher graded holder.
if anyone has images for one, your efforts of posting one on this forum would go a long way for education.
i'm sure it has been done for a while now, but it seemed on a small enough scale to escape my reach, but now that it has reached me, the problem must be growing .
<< <i>. well i didn't say anything because i was hoping that if there are people that participate in counterfeiting that watch this forum and/or participate, they wouldn't be encouraged to do this but:
i've just gotten my first reports of genuine coins in non-genuine holders where the premise is to find a coin that looks like it may pass at a higher graded holder.
if anyone has images for one, your efforts of posting one on this forum would go a long way for education.
i'm sure it has been done for a while now, but it seemed on a small enough scale to escape my reach, but now that it has reached me, the problem must be growing . >>
Here you go:
This image on the left is authentic (from Heritage archives), the one on the right (ebay) is counterfeit. Forget the difference in label color caused by lighting, etc. - these fake slabs are spot-on. I should know because I myself was initially fooled by one of these counterfeits (not the one above) until I found the same coin in Heritage and could see differences in my coin vs. the one in the HA archives. Fortunately I was able to get my $ back but most buyers were completely unaware they had been taken given the positive feedback for these sellers (more than one ebay ID was involved). I worked with PCGS to shut down these sellers but most of the damage had been done by the time I had discovered I had been victimized by this scam. Their MO is straightforward: take a coin like the one above with a large spread between successive grades, take an authentic coin at the lower grade and place it in a fake slab with the higher grade on the label. Almost the perfect crime - I mean, how many of us can definitively tell the difference between a PR69 vs. PR70 grade?
or the speculation of a 64/65 even a high-dollar 61/62, heck the circulated grades would be just a brutal for abuse.
The losers doing this can even just take any raw coin which can be bought at a discount or one from a problem holder and make a good holder, although the cert wouldn't hold up.
The main difference I can spot after a few seconds of looking is the position of the numbers vs barcode. I really doubt I would catch that Ike based on the images unless compared to an authentic high-quality image, but maybe not even then since the cert is so good. The variances are so subtle it makes me stomach turn a bit thinking of the chaos things like these cause.
or the speculation of a 64/65 even a high-dollar 61/62, heck the circulated grades would be just a brutal for abuse.
The losers doing this can even just take any raw coin which can be bought at a discount or one from a problem holder and make a good holder, although the cert wouldn't hold up.
The main difference I can spot after a few seconds of looking is the position of the numbers vs barcode. I really doubt I would catch that Ike based on the images unless compared to an authentic high-quality image, but maybe not even then since the cert is so good. The variances are so subtle it makes me stomach turn a bit thinking of the chaos things like these cause.
Thanks for posting Iconbuster. . >>
Yes, the numbers vs. barcode positioning is slightly different on the fake slab, but taken as a standalone entity the above fake would probably fool the vast majority of the members of this board. Here's another one where the differences on the label are only slightly more apparent (left one is authentic):
Yes, they had the audacity to create a counterfeit slab with a Jack Lee pedigree on the label. This is the one that originally led me to the Heritage archives such that I was then able to see I had been taken by these scam artists.
. an accepted classification system for counterfeit coins
rating is as such. D-1 to D-4 where D4 will be the most deceiving.
Read the appendix a in the "professional edition redbook" that contains the section for The Hobby Protection Act.
Interesting definitions for coins made/distributed within the USA.
COPY must be legible, of a minimum size font, and incused but not raised. This probably prevents the grinding of the letters, whereas filling the letters is probably exceedingly more difficult.
Counterfeits as defined by "THPA":
section 304.1 Terms Defined. (d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatics item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government. (f)Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money and commemorative medals. (g) Original political item means any political button, poster, literature, sticker, or any advertisement produced for use in any political cause. (h) Person means any individual, group, association, partnership or any other business entity. (i) Regulations means any or all regulations prescribed by the Federal Trade Commission pursuant to the Act.
Sec. 304.6 is very interesting imo and anyone selling non-approved numismatic items that do not fall within these parameters should take special note.
It goes on to define dimensions, weight, what US means and the land contained within that is covered by the regulations/acts, marketing, applicability, how non-authorized items shall be marked/permitted and much more. .
I'll add the answers to the 7 in the OP that you haven't iven away:
1884-S $20: Looks fake but not positive 1912-S Nickel: Hideous fake. 1829 CB2: Ditto, it is BU = Butt Ugly 1795 dollar: Can't say for sure. Something is off about it. It's also heavily cleaned. Chain Cent: Entire coin is reengraved except the chain, but you can't fake a look that ugly. I wouldn't buy it. 1800 quarter: Horrid fake. Variety cents: Have to see the actual coins.
- i think it is listed as a fake in my d-base but i'm not confident either way. i have a gold counterfeit detection book but haven't looked it up to see any pups.
<< <i>1795 dollar: >>
- the giveaway on this type is often the edge. when it is too nice, it is bad news.
<< <i>Chain Cent: >>
- i have it listed as fake but remains unconfirmed.
<< <i>Variety cents: Have to see the actual coins >>
- all 3 are fakes.
you did pretty well.
sometimes images just can't get us there. - (thinking about a couple that i posted that in retrospect i probably shouldn't have posted but i thought, well that is reality, sometimes it is just a pain) .
The Chain is just inaccurately re-engraved. It's very common on 1700s large cents and makes them look ridiculous. So I say all are fake but that one. Post another real/fake comparison for us, and let us guess.
<< <i>The Chain is just inaccurately re-engraved. It's very common on 1700s large cents and makes them look ridiculous. So I say all are fake but that one. Post another real/fake comparison for us, and let us guess. >>
as i sit here, i think it may be a smith "counterfeit". the more i look at it the more it seems to remind me of that. not for sure though as my diversity has far exceeded my recall. .
<< <i>The 1800 "quarter" looks like a half dime to me. Doesn't make it less fake. Do you have any pics you can post here? I want to play! >>
ya, i have tons of images. it takes time and energy though since i don't just willy-nilly post random images. i chose those in this thread very carefully and also, not all images are quality enough to post since i'm not the one that imaged them. some of the images below are really too poor to be effective.
a lot of things on the agenda but i for sure will post some more, just can't say when. if a larger value (to me) coin i recently had graded sells soon, that will give me a bit of extra time to finish up the 09-s vdb comp image i'm working on and then post some more to this thread. just an awkward week or two coming up and possibly a few weeks. .
Comments
images and date information in the first post
.
ttt for tttuesday!
.
1 more added for now
.
7 more added
.
just a ttt for those wanting to see some counterfeit images
.
no relaxing now
counterfeits are everywhere!
.
well i didn't say anything because i was hoping that if there are people that participate in counterfeiting that watch this forum and/or participate, they wouldn't be encouraged to do this but:
i've just gotten my first reports of genuine coins in non-genuine holders where the premise is to find a coin that looks like it may pass at a higher graded holder.
if anyone has images for one, your efforts of posting one on this forum would go a long way for education.
i'm sure it has been done for a while now, but it seemed on a small enough scale to escape my reach, but now that it has reached me, the problem must be growing
.
just a bump
seeing more and more. there are more than we realize!
.
<< <i>.
well i didn't say anything because i was hoping that if there are people that participate in counterfeiting that watch this forum and/or participate, they wouldn't be encouraged to do this but:
i've just gotten my first reports of genuine coins in non-genuine holders where the premise is to find a coin that looks like it may pass at a higher graded holder.
if anyone has images for one, your efforts of posting one on this forum would go a long way for education.
i'm sure it has been done for a while now, but it seemed on a small enough scale to escape my reach, but now that it has reached me, the problem must be growing
. >>
Here you go:
This image on the left is authentic (from Heritage archives), the one on the right (ebay) is counterfeit. Forget the difference in label color caused by lighting, etc. - these fake slabs are spot-on. I should know because I myself was initially fooled by one of these counterfeits (not the one above) until I found the same coin in Heritage and could see differences in my coin vs. the one in the HA archives. Fortunately I was able to get my $ back but most buyers were completely unaware they had been taken given the positive feedback for these sellers (more than one ebay ID was involved). I worked with PCGS to shut down these sellers but most of the damage had been done by the time I had discovered I had been victimized by this scam. Their MO is straightforward: take a coin like the one above with a large spread between successive grades, take an authentic coin at the lower grade and place it in a fake slab with the higher grade on the label. Almost the perfect crime - I mean, how many of us can definitively tell the difference between a PR69 vs. PR70 grade?
Successful BST transactions with: Tdec1000(2x), SeaEagleCoins, sweetwilliet, piecesofme, MICHAELDIXON, lkeigwin, Gerard, THEGENERAL, ponderit, pursuitofliberty, AnkurJ, kryptonitecomics
<< <i>PR69 vs. PR70 grade? >>
or the speculation of a 64/65 even a high-dollar 61/62, heck the circulated grades would be just a brutal for abuse.
The losers doing this can even just take any raw coin which can be bought at a discount or one from a problem holder and make a good holder, although the cert wouldn't hold up.
The main difference I can spot after a few seconds of looking is the position of the numbers vs barcode. I really doubt I would catch that Ike based on the images unless compared to an authentic high-quality image, but maybe not even then since the cert is so good. The variances are so subtle it makes me stomach turn a bit thinking of the chaos things like these cause.
Thanks for posting Iconbuster.
.
<< <i>
<< <i>PR69 vs. PR70 grade? >>
or the speculation of a 64/65 even a high-dollar 61/62, heck the circulated grades would be just a brutal for abuse.
The losers doing this can even just take any raw coin which can be bought at a discount or one from a problem holder and make a good holder, although the cert wouldn't hold up.
The main difference I can spot after a few seconds of looking is the position of the numbers vs barcode. I really doubt I would catch that Ike based on the images unless compared to an authentic high-quality image, but maybe not even then since the cert is so good. The variances are so subtle it makes me stomach turn a bit thinking of the chaos things like these cause.
Thanks for posting Iconbuster.
. >>
Yes, the numbers vs. barcode positioning is slightly different on the fake slab, but taken as a standalone entity the above fake would probably fool the vast majority of the members of this board. Here's another one where the differences on the label are only slightly more apparent (left one is authentic):
Yes, they had the audacity to create a counterfeit slab with a Jack Lee pedigree on the label. This is the one that originally led me to the Heritage archives such that I was then able to see I had been taken by these scam artists.
Successful BST transactions with: Tdec1000(2x), SeaEagleCoins, sweetwilliet, piecesofme, MICHAELDIXON, lkeigwin, Gerard, THEGENERAL, ponderit, pursuitofliberty, AnkurJ, kryptonitecomics
update for counterfeit holders
provenance
dukor - 1924-d $20
jack lee - 1960 and 1960-D 1c
errors
3 1/2 leggers
1955 ddo 1c
1869/69 1c
off-center
more
genuine - no grade
foreign
.
saw my first counterfeits with die polishing lines over the weekend. will provide images in 30-60 days, plus some other goodies
.
i really should add some more images huh?
.
an accepted classification system for counterfeit coins
rating is as such. D-1 to D-4 where D4 will be the most deceiving.
Read the appendix a in the "professional edition redbook" that contains the section for The Hobby Protection Act.
Interesting definitions for coins made/distributed within the USA.
COPY must be legible, of a minimum size font, and incused but not raised. This probably prevents the grinding of the letters, whereas filling the letters is probably exceedingly more difficult.
Counterfeits as defined by "THPA":
section 304.1 Terms Defined.
(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatics item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government.
(f)Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money and commemorative medals.
(g) Original political item means any political button, poster, literature, sticker, or any advertisement produced for use in any political cause.
(h) Person means any individual, group, association, partnership or any other business entity.
(i) Regulations means any or all regulations prescribed by the Federal Trade Commission pursuant to the Act.
Sec. 304.6 is very interesting imo and anyone selling non-approved numismatic items that do not fall within these parameters should take special note.
It goes on to define dimensions, weight, what US means and the land contained within that is covered by the regulations/acts, marketing, applicability, how non-authorized items shall be marked/permitted and much more.
.
online wording for the H.P.A. 1973 - link no longer working.
.
just adding this image again but to this thread for my convenience and sharing with others that want to know about authentication methods.
11 month ttt
.
1884-S $20: Looks fake but not positive
1912-S Nickel: Hideous fake.
1829 CB2: Ditto, it is BU = Butt Ugly
1795 dollar: Can't say for sure. Something is off about it. It's also heavily cleaned.
Chain Cent: Entire coin is reengraved except the chain, but you can't fake a look that ugly. I wouldn't buy it.
1800 quarter: Horrid fake.
Variety cents: Have to see the actual coins.
<< <i>1884-S $20: >>
- i think it is listed as a fake in my d-base but i'm not confident either way. i have a gold counterfeit detection book but haven't looked it up to see any pups.
<< <i>1795 dollar: >>
- the giveaway on this type is often the edge. when it is too nice, it is bad news.
<< <i>Chain Cent: >>
- i have it listed as fake but remains unconfirmed.
<< <i>Variety cents: Have to see the actual coins >>
- all 3 are fakes.
you did pretty well.
sometimes images just can't get us there.
.
<< <i>The Chain is just inaccurately re-engraved. It's very common on 1700s large cents and makes them look ridiculous. So I say all are fake but that one. Post another real/fake comparison for us, and let us guess. >>
as i sit here, i think it may be a smith "counterfeit". the more i look at it the more it seems to remind me of that. not for sure though as my diversity has far exceeded my recall.
.
<< <i>The 1800 "quarter" looks like a half dime to me. Doesn't make it less fake. Do you have any pics you can post here? I want to play! >>
ya, i have tons of images. it takes time and energy though since i don't just willy-nilly post random images. i chose those in this thread very carefully and also, not all images are quality enough to post since i'm not the one that imaged them. some of the images below are really too poor to be effective.
a lot of things on the agenda but i for sure will post some more, just can't say when. if a larger value (to me) coin i recently had graded sells soon, that will give me a bit of extra time to finish up the 09-s vdb comp image i'm working on and then post some more to this thread. just an awkward week or two coming up and possibly a few weeks.
.
old thread ttt
.