Another threat to the hobby; USPS won't pay claims.
cladking
Posts: 28,668 ✭✭✭✭✭
Frank S Robinson says that the USPS won't pay four claims for missing parcels.
Registered and insured parcels are already at much greater risk of theft since
they are identified as being valuable. If the post office no longer pays claims then
they no longer have incentive to stop the theft.
link
This may prove a huge boost for UPS and cost the PO millions on insurance.
Then again perhaps this is the result of a single overzealous postmaster.
Registered and insured parcels are already at much greater risk of theft since
they are identified as being valuable. If the post office no longer pays claims then
they no longer have incentive to stop the theft.
link
This may prove a huge boost for UPS and cost the PO millions on insurance.
Then again perhaps this is the result of a single overzealous postmaster.
Tempus fugit.
0
Comments
<< <i>Send registered mail at your own risk, dealer warns
I recently sent four nondelivered registered mail parcels, which the U.S. Postal Service acknowledged were stolen.
These were orders sent to customers, who ordered from my dealer price list.
The Postal Service has refused to pay the insurance claims on these parcels, on the basis that the customers’ orders, my dealer invoices, and my price lists do not constitute adequate evidence of value.
Apparently, refusal to pay legitimate insurance claims on stolen parcels is the Postal Service’s latest plan for closing its budget deficit. Collectors and dealers sending coins by insured or registered mail should be duly warned.
Frank S. Robinson
Albany, N.Y. >>
No specifics on coins, prices paid, number of customers or anything other than a "Letter to the Editor" complaining about the USPS.
Unfortunately, many members here have files and received compensation on insurance claims so lets not get the mob fired up just yet!
The name is LEE!
Russ, NCNE
Long story short, somehow the box was dropped and the coins broke the canvas bag and both boxes they were contained in.
Spilling out all over the floor.
The postmaster called me and over the course of the day, he and 2 other postmasters counted every coin by hand.
The customer later said that they received every coin.
Ever since that day I have had 100% faith in the US postal service.
<< <i>About 2 years ago I sent a 1000$ face via registered.
Long story short, somehow the box was dropped and the coins broke the canvas bag and both boxes they were contained in.
Spilling out all over the floor.
The postmaster called me and over the course of the day, he and 2 other postmasters counted every coin by hand.
The customer later said that they received every coin.
Ever since that day I have had 100% faith in the US postal service. >>
Several years ago a consignor sent me nine flat rate boxes of coins packed so they were all near the weight limit. He did a lousy of job taping them, and several busted open with bunches of coins spilling at the local annex. I compared his manifests with what arrived, and provided the list of missing coins to a guy at the annex. I got the same results as you. They busted their butts tracking down the missing material. They didn't find it all, but did find most.
Russ, NCNE
And yes I realize there is a chance to run into a bad apple in both barrels.
<< <i>Well, here, let's not hold back on what your comments are in reference to:
<< <i>Send registered mail at your own risk, dealer warns
I recently sent four nondelivered registered mail parcels, which the U.S. Postal Service acknowledged were stolen.
These were orders sent to customers, who ordered from my dealer price list.
The Postal Service has refused to pay the insurance claims on these parcels, on the basis that the customers’ orders, my dealer invoices, and my price lists do not constitute adequate evidence of value.
Apparently, refusal to pay legitimate insurance claims on stolen parcels is the Postal Service’s latest plan for closing its budget deficit. Collectors and dealers sending coins by insured or registered mail should be duly warned.
Frank S. Robinson
Albany, N.Y. >>
No specifics on coins, prices paid, number of customers or anything other than a "Letter to the Editor" complaining about the USPS.
Unfortunately, many members here have files and received compensation on insurance claims so lets not get the mob fired up just yet! >>
About 2 months or so before the BIG BANG with the missing toned Peace dollar there was a post where the poster said he was only reimbursed $15 for a more expensive coin. Also the guy who underinsured the returned Peace dollar was told the same thing; that he might get at most $15. In fact he was told that an agreement to do business at a certain price wasn't adequate proof of the coin's value. They wanted an advertised price from a place like Best Buy, LOLOLOL.
<< <i>
Unfortunately, many members here have files and received compensation on insurance claims so lets not get the mob fired up just yet! >>
You're right, of course, that it's too early for the torches and pitchforks
but I've lost most of the value of two rather significant shipments so am
rather sensitive to such things. I might be getting back into active buying,
selling, and trading after many years of not so stories like this grab my atten-
tion.
Really the only reason to not just pay the insured price of an artical is to prevent
fraud on the part of customers. But almost all these parcels are stolen wholly out-
side the control of customers so having to establish value is just a hoop to jump through.
<< <i>No specifics on coins, prices paid, number of customers or anything other than a "Letter to the Editor" complaining about the USPS.
>>
I should point out that Frank S Robinson is extremely trustworthy. I seriously doubt
there's any inaccuracy in his version of the story.
Page 8 of Publication 122 states:
The fair market value of stamps and coins of
philatelic or numismatic value, as determined
by a recognized stamp or coin dealer or
current coin and stamp collector’s newsletter
and trade paper.
Read the publication, which is in another post I authored in 2005 and updated last year. If you have problems, go over the local post master's head. The Postmaster General's number is public and you shouldn't have a problem talking to him. I have talked to him on several occasions with great success. DO NOT TAKE LOCAL POST OFFICES AS THE FINAL SAY. MANY TIMES THEY DO NOT KNOW THE REGULATIONS!
I used to ship 10,000 wheats cents for the flat rate but that really is to heavy for most of the people working there and decided after one got busted to limit my flat rates to 5000 wheats.
My local post office will call me in the afternoon if i get a pkg that is to be delivered the following day and see if i want to stop by AND pick it up.
I had a proof liberty nickel lost and i gave my local post office pics and certificate numbers and they forewarded it to a lost and found facility and they hunting it down. It took them a few weeks but they found it.
I have no complaints at my local PO, and they never complain if i show up at 4.50 p.m. to ship something although i try hard not to do that to them unless it is just a drop off.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>
<< <i>At what level were the claims denied? >>
Sounds like he's trying to use his own invoices as evidence of market value. If he'd use the Greysheet they'd pay the claims without further question.
"The Postal Service has refused to pay the insurance claims on these parcels, on the basis that the customers’ orders, my dealer invoices, and my price lists do not constitute adequate evidence of value." >>
Since not all coins of the same year, mm, grade are equal in value would you accept greysheet pricing as remuneration for a monster toned 1884-O Morgan in ms66 that someone paid you $8,000 for?
<< <i>I believe the postal inspectors take their job very seriously >>
Do they process claims?
<< <i>
<< <i>I believe the postal inspectors take their job very seriously >>
Do they process claims? >>
I don't know about that,
but they may be interested in allegations that the coin was stolen by a postal worker
just a thought
"The Postal Service has refused to pay the insurance claims on these parcels, on the basis that the customers’ orders, my dealer invoices, and my price lists do not constitute adequate evidence of value." >>
<< <i>Sounds like he's trying to use his own invoices as evidence of market value. If he'd use the Greysheet they'd pay the claims without further question.
"The Postal Service has refused to pay the insurance claims on these parcels, on the basis that the customers’ orders, my dealer invoices, and my price lists do not constitute adequate evidence of value." >>
How about using a copy of the customer's check?
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
In our view, of course there is a difference between coins. But this is not how the PO looks at it. Toned coins, top end moderns, etc., are examples of coins that have value in the eye of the beholder. They are not universally accepted and valued in the market place. I can see a scenario where the Post Office would hesitate or refuse a claim on such a coin, or value it at a much lower level. Not saying it's right; but since they have no standard references to compare the items to, and since toning, grading is subjective, etc....
<< <i>"Since not all coins of the same year, mm, grade are equal in value would you accept greysheet pricing as remuneration for a monster toned 1884-O Morgan in ms66 that someone paid you $8,000 for?"
In our view, of course there is a difference between coins. But this is not how the PO looks at it. Toned coins, top end moderns, etc., are examples of coins that have value in the eye of the beholder. They are not universally accepted and valued in the market place. I can see a scenario where the Post Office would hesitate or refuse a claim on such a coin, or value it at a much lower level. Not saying it's right; but since they have no standard references to compare the items to, and since toning, grading is subjective, etc.... >>
What about the oft-made here statement that a coin is worth what a willing seller and buyer agree to?
<< <i>IMO registered mail has the absolute lowest risk of theft >>
What he said. In fact the loss rate is so low, I am often comfortable sending pkgs. registered and declining the insurance.
This makes me want to quit mowing the yard.
devil's advocate
<< <i>
<< <i>IMO registered mail has the absolute lowest risk of theft >>
What he said. In fact the loss rate is so low, I am often comfortable sending pkgs. registered and declining the insurance. >>
Unless the item you're shipping has no value, you cannot decline insurance on registered shipments.
Except for the random wingnut you might encounter at the window, the guys in the back office usually try to make things right when presented with the facts.
And the postal inspectors are VERY serious about their jobs.
Obviously you don;t have any claim rights if it's lost.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
How about using a copy of the customer's check? >>
<< <i>You can always decline insurance with registered US Mail. Just don't put a value. It's pretty simple.
Obviously you don;t have any claim rights if it's lost. >>
USPS DMM regualtions:
Only articles of no value may be mailed as Registered Mail without insurance.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
2.3.1 Full Value
Regardless of any insurance that may cover the article, the mailer must always declare its full value to the USPS when presenting it for registration and mailing (see chart below). The mailer must tell the USPS clerk (or enter on the firm sheet if a firm mailer) the full value of mail matter presented for registration. Private insurance carried on Registered Mail does not modify the requirements for declaring the full value. The accepting USPS employee may ask the mailer to show that the full value of the matter presented is declared, and may refuse to accept the matter as Registered Mail if a satisfactory declaration of value is not provided. Only articles of no value may be mailed as Registered Mail without insurance.
USPS DMM
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
<< <i>Sounds like he's trying to use his own invoices as evidence of market value. If he'd use the Greysheet they'd pay the claims without further question.
"The Postal Service has refused to pay the insurance claims on these parcels, on the basis that the customers’ orders, my dealer invoices, and my price lists do not constitute adequate evidence of value." >>
Some people really need to broadin their horizons.
The whole world doesn't revolve around the US market and the 'greysheet'.
Frank Robinson specializes in ancient and foreign coins.
Try looking them up in your favorite price guide.
Got quoins?
<< <i>I think everyone has missed the point here. If you insure a package you are paying for a service. Obviously to prevent fraud the USPS wants some proof of what you insured. I have never had a problem with the small amount of claims I have had. I just print out a copy of the transaction and show it to the clerk. Never had a problem. Bottom line is in my opinion even if you mail an empty envelope...the PO doens't get it there...then they owe you what you insured it foir. Be interesting to here a lawyers take on that >>
The problem is that nobody is held responsible. They don't want to prosecute
people who get caught defrauding the PO or the bank so rather than holding them
responsible they hold the user or owner responsible. The bank can turn your
accounts over to another person who copied your check and incompetently not
do due diligence in checking signatures or identities but it's your problem now.
You have to chase down the miscreant since the government will have to trip over
them before they prosecute. In some cases like with MF Global they just promote
people to new positions after getting caught making profits from other peoples'
money.
The PO would have to pay numerous claims if they did their careless ways of
delivering packages if they had to pay for each one stolen so rather than discour-
age thieves by prosecuting them they erect barriers to claiming compensation.
Yes, I agree. They should charge based on the amount of insurance and then lock
up those who would commit fraud through the various means one can affect the odds
of shipments properly reaching their destinations with proper signatures.
Now days they aren't even teaching children how to write in cursive. Signatures
wil have no meaning in forty years but it won't matter because no one is responsible
and no one will have an individualidentity in the eyes of government. There's lots to
teach them about how not to have indians as mascots and which company's pro-
ducts to buy and there's no time for reading or writing. There's certainly no time for
cursive, responsibility, or individuality.
Box of 20
As Mike Dixon said, often you have to go over the head of the first employee you talk to, since many of them don't know the regulations and policies regarding shipment of coins.
...Tom
LRC Numismatics eBay listings:
http://stores.ebay.com/lrcnumismatics