How many times have you submitted a coin before getting the grade or giving up?
lkeigwin
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Some friendly dealers talk of submitting a coin for grading a dozen or more times. We've all heard it. Eventually it gets the grade or the owner gives up.
I know a lot of collectors frown on the grading game. But sometimes the stakes are big and the "gamble" is worth it.
What about you? How many times have you submitted the same coin for grading before getting what you felt it deserved, or giving up?
Lance.
I know a lot of collectors frown on the grading game. But sometimes the stakes are big and the "gamble" is worth it.
What about you? How many times have you submitted the same coin for grading before getting what you felt it deserved, or giving up?
Lance.
Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
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The only 3 timer I can think of that hit was a coin that went NGC64 ($7,000), PCGS63 ($3,000), and NGC65 ($15,000). And the only reason that went in a 3rd time because I
was buried in it at the 63 grade. There was no choice but to crack and try again. But I know there are people out there that tried some of the coins I gave up on after 2 shots and succeeded.
Do you think cracking out gives it a better shot?
Jack
If it doesn't come back upgraded the first time, I might try once more if I really think the coin is special. After that I'm done.
<< <i>Do you think cracking out gives it a better shot?
Jack >>
I don't think so.
Too much downside risk.
<< <i>Do you think cracking out gives it a better shot?
Jack >>
I think HRH once said that it is something of a tossup. Risk aside, I gathered from posts here that coins cracked out get holdered at the same grade, even if it didn't make it on crossover.
<< <i>How many times have you submitted a coin before getting the grade or giving up? >>
One coin, three times
First time, coin came back "altered surfaces".
Second time, coin came back "Questionable color".
Coin was graded MS-64. Too bad it took PCGS three time to get it right.
1st time no-go; Shame on PCGS
2nd time no-go; Shame on me so it is time to accept or move on
six, but that was case of just trying to get a 17-D Merc dime back in its original holder after a crackout.
It kept coming back either Questionable Color (or netted down a grade). This was a decade ago when I
was still pretty wet behind the ears, and it taught me a valuable lesson (for a reasonable price). I
finally got it back to its original grade (but in an NGC holder), and then sold it on eBay for about
what I paid for it (minus the cost of six submissions.
I think the most times I've ever sent in one coin is 15 times or something like that. The most times a single coin got sent in that I know of is around 130 times.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
i know russ used to fight for grades in the past by not only resubmitting but using that service too
i've no track record yet to report...the one i thought i'd get "wet with" graded 1st time in by me...
but i'm sure i'll rack up some experience for sure...
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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<< <i>Threads like this don't give me a lot of confidence in the grading services.
It's not funny. it's sad.
A dealer I know told me he once submitted a coin 18 times. Perhaps he'll chime in and comment further.
<< <i>It depends on several factors including value of the coin, the value spread between grades and how strongly I believe the coin deserves to be graded higher. On common date Morgans and Walkers they are normally sent in once unless a coin is blatantly undergraded or misgraded. On better date coins with low downside and strong upside several tries are normal.
I think the most times I've ever sent in one coin is 15 times or something like that. The most times a single coin got sent in that I know of is around 130 times. >>
Does it help any to include your own opinion about why you think the coin is undergraded?
Tom
<< <i>These rebsummissions wreak havoc on the pop reports. >>
It does help the grading services' bottom line though.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>It depends on several factors including value of the coin, the value spread between grades and how strongly I believe the coin deserves to be graded higher. On common date Morgans and Walkers they are normally sent in once unless a coin is blatantly undergraded or misgraded. On better date coins with low downside and strong upside several tries are normal.
I think the most times I've ever sent in one coin is 15 times or something like that. The most times a single coin got sent in that I know of is around 130 times. >>
Does it help any to include your own opinion about why you think the coin is undergraded? >>
When I have a coin bb that I believe should slab, I almost always re-submit and I have had a high success rate at slabbing on the second try..over 70% I would say. When I submit a coin and it undergrades, it usually stays that way and upon reconsideration, I usually agree with the grading services, usually PCGS.
The one coin I submitted 3 times was a Pan-Pac 50c, very well struck (they come that way though) and toned, and purchased raw for 64 money. I actually thought it might 5. Each submission came back 62, including a trip to ANACS and NGC. There was just something about the obverse toning that the services didn't like. I finally decided that the services might be correct and that the toning might be hiding some rub, and that the toning might have even been enhanced (though it never BBd.) So, I took the hit and moved on.
Tom
I'm curious if you got the upgrade on try #15? And if you didn't, why stop there? Did the guy with 130x also get their upgrade?
I recall a cracked out MS64 $10 Lib I had that looked to be a no brainer upgrade as it had no hits and essentially no hairlines of any sort. It was almost "too" clean. It proceeded to BB the first 2 tries. Since both services BB'd it I gave up and sent it to auction as a raw "mistake." Maybe someone would see it the same way I did initially. The auction house loved the coin and resubmitted it before the auction.
Came back 66.
When I get back an NGC attempted cross with something like QT for the bag from PCGS, I often resubmit the coin another two times. PCGS simply will not consider how a two hundred year old coin might well develop toning that does not look exactly right to them. A lot can happen in two hundred years, things that really should not be considered AT, but PCGS does not allow such. NGC does better on understanding this.
The other reason I resubmit is when PCGS will not allow for the condition of the dies on late die state Bust Series coins. There are many LDS Bust coins that simply never came with normal mint luster, and many of these are quite rare, and valuable. For these bags, PCGS will say altered surfaces, or environmental damage. NGC has done a decent job allowing for these worn out dies. Depending on the value of the coin, I might attempt as many as four crossovers before I give up. This is one reason the PCGS POP reports show so few of the very rare late die states, far fewer than NGC shows. PCGS loses that $24 attribution fee if the coin does not cross.
Why do I bother trying to cross Bust Series coins from NGC to PCGS? The PCGS Registry is one reason. The biggest reason is that PCGS holdered Bust Series coins simply sell better, and for more money.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>I think the most times I've ever sent in one coin is 15 times or something like that. The most times a single coin got sent in that I know of is around 130 times.
I'm curious if you got the upgrade on try #15? And if you didn't, why stop there? Did the guy with 130x also get their upgrade? >>
On the last try the coin finally worked. For the coin that was allegedly graded 130 times it upgraded.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>
<< <i>It depends on several factors including value of the coin, the value spread between grades and how strongly I believe the coin deserves to be graded higher. On common date Morgans and Walkers they are normally sent in once unless a coin is blatantly undergraded or misgraded. On better date coins with low downside and strong upside several tries are normal.
I think the most times I've ever sent in one coin is 15 times or something like that. The most times a single coin got sent in that I know of is around 130 times. >>
Does it help any to include your own opinion about why you think the coin is undergraded? >>
No because the graders don't ever see the submission paperwork much less any comments written by the submitter.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>The most times a single coin got sent in that I know of is around 130 times. >>
That's a lot of money that could have been spent on scratch-off lottery tickets.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Then again, you don't want to end up being the guy that bought the coin after the 130th submission.
Good reading for newbies though.
<< <i>An Israeli diamond importer recently told me that GIA actually strongly discourages dealers from resubmitting diamonds and second guessing them, and that repeat offenders may lose their ability to submit. Can you imagine if the 3rd party coin grading services took that stance?
Do they do something more scientific that looking, thinking, pondering and guessing?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It depends on several factors including value of the coin, the value spread between grades and how strongly I believe the coin deserves to be graded higher. On common date Morgans and Walkers they are normally sent in once unless a coin is blatantly undergraded or misgraded. On better date coins with low downside and strong upside several tries are normal.
I think the most times I've ever sent in one coin is 15 times or something like that. The most times a single coin got sent in that I know of is around 130 times. >>
Does it help any to include your own opinion about why you think the coin is undergraded? >>
No because the graders don't ever see the submission paperwork much less any comments written by the submitter. >>
I was thinking it might get seen by a finalizer or you might be given a chance to appeal while they still have the coin.
same thing about a year ago. this time a 1802 large cent. first time, altered surfaces, second time altered surfaces, sold to a dealer in the genuine holder, his first time blam au-53.
I was none too pleased to see the coin up on coinfacts 2 years later with a grade of 64+.
<< <i>Sent in a cbh N64 w green CAC to PCGS 4x--DNC on each return. Gave up.
I was none too pleased to see the coin up on coinfacts 2 years later with a grade of 64+.
Yup. This is one of the major things wrong with the slabbed coin market. Too many nice coins don't cross (especially choice and gem type coins). And the failure to cross keeps
prices lower. Why not have a shared system where other TPG coins submitted to the opposite service can be cracked out right there for review. If they fail to cross then they can
be returned to the orig TPG for reholdering at the same grade (at a fee to the owner of course). I know there's a reason this won't happen. But we can dream. I'd be willing to
pay $200-$500 for such a service on coins valued at say 5 figures and higher. It's cheaper in the end to just get the coin graded right the first time. With such a system there might
not be any good coins left in the other guy's holders.
<< <i>An Israeli diamond importer recently told me that GIA actually strongly discourages dealers from resubmitting diamonds and second guessing them, and that repeat offenders may lose their ability to submit. Can you imagine if the 3rd party coin grading services took that stance?
They threatened me with that as well.
Submitted a green 4.0 carat diamond about 6 times, on the 6th time they sent me a warning, that if I sent this diamond once more, I would lose member priveldges permanently.
So i sent it overseas... First time it came back the grade I wanted!!! Payday
On my submission I sent out today, all 22 are being sent in again, since I wasnt happy with the grades the first time, several are going in for their 20th attempt.
Most Ive ever resubmitted was 72 times on a 56 FE cent
Recently had one come back in after 4 times with the grade I wanted
1919 S SLQ au-55 !!!
First 3 times she came back cleaned or questionable color.
I sent it to PCGS expecting an MS65FS and it came back MS64FS, so I sent it again it came back MS65 no FS, so I sent it in again and it was again graded MS64FS. It still sitts in the MS64FS holder. When I get a chance I will put the coin in a guress the grade thread for some more fun.
when I finally got the grade I was after, I sold the coin immediately. When you think about it, though,
if a coin is submitted 8 times and comes back 65 once, 66 six times and 67 once, maybe the 66 grade
was the correct one. Just because they eventually agreed with me doesn't make it the right grade.
<< <i>Do you think cracking out gives it a better shot?
Jack >>
There is a graded coin on the BST right now that I think would upgrade if cracked out.
So perhaps someone can enlighten me...what magically changes all of a sudden to give the grader the epiphany that the piece is now worthy of the higher grade on resub #15 or 25 or 130, that wasn't there on resub #2 or 3? Things like this make me think that it's more about profit than accuracy. Sorry if that offends our host.
IMO there should be a limit on number of resubs/crossover attempts...given PCGS' new technologies, it shouldn't be that hard to police.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Sometimes I think that animals are smarter than humans, animals would never allow the dumbest one to lead the pack