When a DDR is dramatic enough that it's still obvious on an AG3

OGDan

I see a lot of threads where pictures are shown of a possible doubled die and we all squint to try and make it out.(A few moderns come to mind) Opinions are rendered, discussion ensues, it's fun for the most part.

Then there are coins where the doubled die is blatantly obvious because it's so dramatic. The 76-CC trade dollar falls in that category. I'd grade this example somewhere between an AG3 to G4.



The most obvious doubled features are the lower wing tip as well as the twig, berries and leaves.


The inside of the G, R and N of GRAINS also shows the large shift:

*Note, a few fakes out there miss these details.

And finally, the chin whisker on the eagle, present on all genuine examples (and even a few of the fakes) of this DDR:


Even in this grade, the doubled die features are easily visible to the naked eye. Cool.

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OGDan

Hmm, look at the bottom wing tip, the primary wing has been almost totally worn off, while a second wing tip of lower relief, less worn, sits just below it extending into the twig and berries. Then there's the twig and berries that are doubled below that, I can see those even in the view showing the entire reverse.

Maybe it's just me, but I think it's cool that a coin this worn still shows these features.

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OGDan

<< <i>but seriously i believe one has to know what they are looking for in order to see it. This is a problem I believe wh=ith many varieties, only th eexperts know where to look and even if one is told that it is DDR it still may not be obvious to find it since again i didn't kno where to look for it on the rev, if it was apparent I would have seen it. >>



Fair enough, I thought it was obvious enough that anyone could pick it out, maybe this is a sign that I've been looking at too many of these.

tradedollarnut

Love that coin - would buy it in an instant!

OGDan

<< <i>Love that coin - would buy it in an instant! >>


I'm sure we can work out a trade.

crypto79

Part of the problem with that coin is while the spread in terms of degrees of separation is comparable to the greatest DD in all of American coins, its doubling was partly obliterated by later strikings save at its strongest point (near the center) and in protected low negative spaces like the insides of the letters and wings. Coins like the famous 55 cent have clear doubling in clear negative space and at the focal points of the design which is why it transcends just an avg error.

It also doesn't help that parts like the leaves above the word fine and the wing tip are so doubled that people take it for intentional parts of the design.

19Lyds

<< <i>I wouldn't say it is as easy as you stated. I looked and looked and looked and could find nothing, but that might be just me . >>

I find myself squinting as well.

I was hoping for something like this:

..

Perhaps ots easy for the OP to spot since the OP is familiar with the coin and what to look for?

DorkGirl

OGDan

<< <i>Perhaps ots easy for the OP to spot since the OP is familiar with the coin and what to look for? >>


You've shown an uncirculated coin under magnification. I think you're missing my point.

crypto79

I think the whole point was that no matter how worn down the coin gets that the secondary detail is dramatic enough to still be a naked eye varitiy where as some coins that shall remain name-less (rhymes with Misenhower, Dercury Mimes, 99% of HAM's) are barely noticeable even with mag and once a tad a wear sets in its over. I rest my case with coins like these. While one can collect what they want coins like this will almost never bring people from outside the series or general error collectors into the fold.
..

OGDan

<< <i>no matter how worn down the coin gets that the secondary detail is dramatic enough to still be a naked eye variety >>


Exactly.

JRocco

Nice coin Dan
I wouldn't mind owning that either.

OGDan

Thanks Jrocco. Despite the low grade, I thought it was an interesting coin. PCGS has only graded 26 of them, there just aren't that many out there.

seanq

I've picked up a few Shield Nickels in very low grades with massive doubled dies over the last couple of months. Even in the worst condition, you can still see the doubling of the shield lines on them, like this one (seller's picture).




Sean Reynolds

OGDan

Sean, I don't know the series but that's another good example of an obvious doubled die on a well worn coin.

Lehigh96

Okay, so this is more like VF than AG but considering that the DDR is located in a protected area, we can assume that it would still be evident in even the lowest grades.

NewParadigm

I can't see it.

OGDan

<< <i>I can't see it. >>



I don't believe it's not that obvious to people, you shouldn't need the hints, but I've been wrong once or twice.

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OGDan

Yeah, this goes back to the same point though. It's not that anyone off the street can spot the doubled features. The point is that even with a very worn example, the doubling is still apparent, albeit you may need to know where to look.

I should have pointed this out originally since the thread was torpedoed with "I can't see it". My fault.

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OGDan

<< <i>

<< <i>Yeah, this goes back to the same point though. It's not that anyone off the street can spot the doubled features. The point is that even with a very worn example, the doubling is still apparent, albeit you may need to know where to look.

I should have pointed this out originally since the thread was torpedoed with "I can't see it". My fault. >>



But I really am diagreeing with you, to my eyes many of the doubling appears to be from wear or hits again only because I am not familiar with the series. However I can't make that mistake with Crypto's example, on that one it is clear. So the grade is hugely important, yes the markers are there but they also look to be the result of possible damage/wear to the uneducated. So with a very worn example it is especially NOT apparent imho. >>


IMO, Anyone who has ever studied the reverse of a trade dollar, even casually, should be able to tell that the extra features are not wear. I guess we'll disagree on this point.

DAM

<< <i><< Hmm, look at the bottom wing tip, the primary wing has been almost totally worn off, while a second wing tip of lower relief, less worn, sits just below it extending into the twig and berries. Then there's the twig and berries that are doubled below that, I can see those even in the view showing the entire reverse.

Maybe it's just me, but I think it's cool that a coin this worn still shows these features. >>



Now i think I can see it, but seriously i believe one has to know what they are looking for in order to see it. This is a problem I believe wh=ith many varieties, only th eexperts know where to look and even if one is told that it is DDR it still may not be obvious to find it since again i didn't kno where to look for it on the rev, if it was apparent I would have seen it. But yes even on a low grade specimen it is nice to finally see it? >>



I've shown friends some of my variety coins over the years and they would ask how do you know to look for this. My answer is always... knowledge is power. If everyone knew what to look for there wouldn't be anything left to find.

The Trade Dollar and Shield Nickel are perfect examples of what you can find if you know what to look for.

Neat pieces folks.

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19Lyds

"I think the whole point was that no matter how worn down the coin gets that the secondary detail is dramatic enough to still be a naked eye varitiy where as some coins that shall remain name-less (rhymes with Misenhower, Dercury Mimes, 99% of HAM's) are barely noticeable even with mag and once a tad a wear sets in its over. I rest my case with coins like these. While one can collect what they want coins like this will almost never bring people from outside the series or general error collectors into the fold."

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Well, I guess I'll just have to keep my eye out for one of these well worn 1971-S IKE DDR's then since the doubling on the coin will be just as apparent as it is on the above PR68 example.

Wish me luck! BTW, even though the "doubling" on the OP's coin has been pointed out AND its now quite obvious, I still have no desire to collect Trade Dollar Varieties.

For the OP, the ONLY coin(s) I recall which are "obviously" doubled to the human eye is the 55/55 and possibly the 72/72 Lincolns. These require no explanation to the untrained eye (non-collectors). Literally everything else requires some knowledge level in order to "see" the doubling. Especially on well worn coins.

The "obvious" to some is not so obvious to others.

If I collected Trade Dollar varieties, the doubling on your coin would be obvious but I don't so it just wasn't what I "expected to see" based upon my knowledge level.

seanq

<< <i>I've shown friends some of my variety coins over the years and they would ask how do you know to look for this. My answer is always... knowledge is power. If everyone knew what to look for there wouldn't be anything left to find.

The Trade Dollar and Shield Nickel are perfect examples of what you can find if you know what to look for. >>




I agree with the above - I didn't take the OP's point to be that the variety is obvious to anyone even in low grades, but rather that it was still readily attributable (sic?) in low grades.

Some of the varieties I search for (on Indian Cents or Seated Dimes, for but two examples) are simply not visible on lower grade coins. Things like split serifs or doubled shield lines are useless when a coin is worn down to the point the serifs and shield lines are no longer discernible. One of the reasons I love searching Shield Nickels on eBay is that there are plenty of varieties that can be seen even on culls.


Sean Reynolds

GMan

Here is my worn 1866 DDO 3CN that is quite dramatic and I think would be visible even if this coin were worn even further:

Closeup:



Harder to see on the whole coin but still visible:



I think this is a neat DDO but it receives little interest since it's a lowly 3CN.