china buying oil with yuans
steveben
Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
what do you think this means for precious metals if anything? could this be another blow to the dollar as a reserve currency?
china buys oil with yuans
china buys oil with yuans
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Comments
No.
In 10-20 years the USA will use much less oil than today. Let the Iranians collect yuans.
Think about it. The Chinese have the ability to manipulate the value of their currency, but not the US dollar. So why not give the world a bunch of yuans and then devalue them?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
International economic warfare is challenging the dollar and the dollar is losing in the long term. This is why PMs gain value. Temporary gains to the dollar will result in temporary damage to the metals. This is what we are seeing and will continue to see as the eurozone breaks down and buyers flee to the dollar for safety. Once they realize the dollar is not safe the naked king will be exposed.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i> So why not give the world a bunch of dollars and then devalue them? >>
sounds so familiar
<< <i>It's more than just oil. world wide use of the petro dollar for international trade is what keeps it alive. Look for further dollar destruction as international demand for it declines. Our deal with the Saudis (you accept only US dollars for oil and we will protect you with our military) is in great jeopardy. This is all good for metals.
International economic warfare is challenging the dollar and the dollar is losing in the long term. This is why PMs gain value. Temporary gains to the dollar will result in temporary damage to the metals. This is what we are seeing and will continue to see as the eurozone breaks down and buyers flee to the dollar for safety. Once they realize the dollar is not safe the naked king will be exposed. >>
Presuming this is true, which it isnt. Its not a good thing. If pms go up like you claim, and your pms are worth dollars, if the dolkar becomes valueless then your pms aint worth squat either.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's more than just oil. world wide use of the petro dollar for international trade is what keeps it alive. Look for further dollar destruction as international demand for it declines. Our deal with the Saudis (you accept only US dollars for oil and we will protect you with our military) is in great jeopardy. This is all good for metals.
International economic warfare is challenging the dollar and the dollar is losing in the long term. This is why PMs gain value. Temporary gains to the dollar will result in temporary damage to the metals. This is what we are seeing and will continue to see as the eurozone breaks down and buyers flee to the dollar for safety. Once they realize the dollar is not safe the naked king will be exposed. >>
Presuming this is true, which it isnt. Its not a good thing. If pms go up like you claim, and your pms are worth dollars, if the dolkar becomes valueless then your pms aint worth squat either. >>
derry b is spot on twinturbo.
re: the bolded part of your reply...i remember wondering the same thing about 5 years ago before getting a macro econ lesson here and other sites often referenced.
hoo boy... hang on and keep reading, dyodd, and one day it will come to you. Cos i'm not good at explaining things like paradigm shifts and presuppositions. Someone else may come along and help. Li'l help.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It's more than just oil. world wide use of the petro dollar for international trade is what keeps it alive. Look for further dollar destruction as international demand for it declines. Our deal with the Saudis (you accept only US dollars for oil and we will protect you with our military) is in great jeopardy. This is all good for metals.
International economic warfare is challenging the dollar and the dollar is losing in the long term. This is why PMs gain value. Temporary gains to the dollar will result in temporary damage to the metals. This is what we are seeing and will continue to see as the eurozone breaks down and buyers flee to the dollar for safety. Once they realize the dollar is not safe the naked king will be exposed. >>
Presuming this is true, which it isnt. Its not a good thing. If pms go up like you claim, and your pms are worth dollars, if the dolkar becomes valueless then your pms aint worth squat either. >>
derry b is spot on twinturbo.
re: the bolded part of your reply...i remember wondering the same thing about 5 years ago before getting a macro econ lesson here and other sites often referenced.
hoo boy... hang on and keep reading, dyodd, and one day it will come to you. Cos i'm not good at explaining things like paradigm shifts and presuppositions. Someone else may come along and help. Li'l help. >>
I disagree he is far off the mark.
why don't you explain this lil macro econ lesson quickly then?
will that be worthless, too?
no.
as the dollar goes down, the value of gold goes up.
the lower the dollar goes, the higher gold goes.
at least for now.
but look at what is happening with oil. countries are already talking about taking other currencies.
this is the future for gold in the very trashed dollar market.
you'll get foreign currency for it, and the exchange won't be comparable to what it would be if the changes from today's exchange rate are considered. At some point, the foreign curreny prices will reach a point where the foreign markets say "that's all we're paying in our currency... who cares what the dollar does. we'll just pay XX amount in our currency for it."
<< <i>why don't you explain this lil macro econ lesson quickly then? >>
The Demise of the Petrodollar
Petrodollar Exiting Through the Back Door?
The Global Dollar Dump Is Already in Progress
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>oil is priced in dollars.
will that be worthless, too?
no.
as the dollar goes down, the value of gold goes up.
the lower the dollar goes, the higher gold goes.
at least for now.
but look at what is happening with oil. countries are already talking about taking other currencies.
this is the future for gold in the very trashed dollar market.
you'll get foreign currency for it, and the exchange won't be comparable to what it would be if the changes from today's exchange rate are considered. At some point, the foreign curreny prices will reach a point where the foreign markets say "that's all we're paying in our currency... who cares what the dollar does. we'll just pay XX amount in our currency for it." >>
my bold,
There is an important exception to this. If a country is weak in the energy sector and NEEDS energy imports, the seller of the energy can demand whatever they wish. That particular buyer will not be setting the terms.
The dollar might have lost a little of it's luster but it isn't a dinosaur just yet.
The only 'good' thing I can say about the USA importing so much energy is that we are preserving our own natural resources and not relying on the export of same to generate wealth.
A lot of people talk of the dollar's demise as a fate accompli. It is not by any stretch. The dollar is seeking a new level, which is good in the overall sense.
There is not enough gold to sustain world trade and Which country's currency would you suppose would replace the dollar? If you like other currencies, by all means go buy them.
<< <i>We're gonna need a graph, does anyone have a graph to show? what would really help here, is a GRAPH >>
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
(it helps that I'm very drunk right now)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>oil is priced in dollars.
will that be worthless, too?
no.
as the dollar goes down, the value of gold goes up.
the lower the dollar goes, the higher gold goes.
at least for now.
but look at what is happening with oil. countries are already talking about taking other currencies.
this is the future for gold in the very trashed dollar market.
you'll get foreign currency for it, and the exchange won't be comparable to what it would be if the changes from today's exchange rate are considered. At some point, the foreign curreny prices will reach a point where the foreign markets say "that's all we're paying in our currency... who cares what the dollar does. we'll just pay XX amount in our currency for it." >>
my bold,
There is an important exception to this. If a country is weak in the energy sector and NEEDS energy imports, the seller of the energy can demand whatever they wish. That particular buyer will not be setting the terms.
The dollar might have lost a little of it's luster but it isn't a dinosaur just yet.
The only 'good' thing I can say about the USA importing so much energy is that we are preserving our own natural resources and not relying on the export of same to generate wealth.
A lot of people talk of the dollar's demise as a fate accompli. It is not by any stretch. The dollar is seeking a new level, which is good in the overall sense.
There is not enough gold to sustain world trade and Which country's currency would you suppose would replace the dollar? If you like other currencies, by all means go buy them. >>
I'm talking hypotheticals
I think we'll get austerity and debt reduction through write-downs just like Greece had.
We won't default either.
I tend to Stick to the Basics and the Facts
NO Purely Fiat Currency in ALL of Human History has EVER Succeeded or Survived.
Average Life Span of a Purely Fiat Currency, Between 10 and 30 Years
U.S. Dollar has been Purely Fiat for 41 years.
Countries and Central Banks are now large Purchasers of Gold and Silver.
Deals are being made at a break neck pace among Countries for resources with one of the major settlement currencies being Gold
Countries are invading Countries Financially and Militarily and one of the first things to disappear from the losing Country is their Gold.
The Rich, Famous and Well Connected are being trotted out on almost a weekly basis in the Main Stream Media to bash Gold and Silver. And to promote Paper. (Stocks, Bonds)
these things from watching what the big boys are doing and not listening to what they are saying
From observing what they are doing I would be willing to bet a shiny quarter that they are building advantageous positions for a major change.
Just my Humble Opinion
Terry
if the dollar becomes valueless then your pms aint worth squat either.
Gold wasn't worth squat in 1922-1924 Germany?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
because people could not eat it and they could not warm them selves with it.
What was of great value was food, coal, tools and along with tools was KNOWLEDGE of how to fix things.
And I hear this all of the time about gold and silver, that it is useless in those situations. And people are right.
But that is not the Primary use of these metals, Their Primary use is Wealth Preservation, Which they do amazingly well.
As with the Hyper-inflation of the Wiemar Republic when it sets in here, one day it will end and Gold and Silver will
still be valued as they have for thousands of years.
Gold and Silver come out the other end of tragic times with their basic value intact.
The paper currency issued by any given country, Not so well
One Days hard human labor= 1/10th oz. Silver or roughly two to three dollars in today's dollars
And a good number of poorer countries that is still about base pay about two dollars a day
or else 1/10th oz. Silver as it has been for thousands of years.
Hyperinflation: Wiemar, Germany January 1919 to November 1923
[Expressed in German Marks needed to by an oz. of ag. or au.]"
Jan. 1919
Silver 12
Gold 170
May. 1919
Silver 17
Gold 267
Sept. 1919
Silver 31
Gold 499
Jan. 1920
Silver 84
Gold 1,340
May 1920
Silver 60
Gold 966
Sept. 1921
Silver 80
Gold 2,175
Jan. 1922
Silver 249
Gold 3,976
May. 1922
Silver 375
Gold 6,012
Sept. 1922
Silver 1899
Gold 30,381
Jan. 1923
Silver 23,277
Gold 372,447
May. 1923
Silver 44,397
Gold 710,355
June 5, 1923
Silver 80,953
Gold 1,295,256
July 3, 1923
Silver 207,239
Gold 3,315,831
Aug. 7, 1923
Silver 4,273,874
Gold 68,382,000
Sept. 4, 1923
Silver 16,839,937
Gold 269,429,000
Oct. 2, 1923
Silver 414,484,000
Gold 6,631,749,000
Oct. 9, 1923
Silver 1,554,309,000
Gold 24,868,950,000
Oct. 16, 1923
Silver 5,319,567,000
Gold 84,969,072,000
Oct. 23, 1923
Silver 7,253,460,000
Gold 1,160,552,662,000
Oct. 30, 1923
Silver 8,419,200,000
Gold 1,347,070,000,000
Nov. 5, 1923
Silver 54,375,000,000
Gold 8,700,000,000,000
Nov. 13, 1923
Silver 108,750,000,000
Gold 17,400,000,000,000
Nov. 30, 1923
Silver 543,750,000,000
Gold 87,000,000,000,000
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Nov. 30, 1923
Silver 543,750,000,000
Gold 87,000,000,000,000 >>
and how many loaves of bread?
or what is that in Jan 1919 money ?
(Just think of city streets clogged with a hundred thousand horses each generating 15 lbs of manure every day...)
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>As long as it's just Iran-China the yuan (or reminbi) isn't operating as a "global" currency. When Iran uses the yuan to buy goods from somewhere other than China THEN the yuan becomes a global currency. >>
true
but Iran wouldn't mind some chinese products. We do import a lot from them already. It's a question of how much yuan do they make off oil and how much can they spend in China ?
Also, they can stockpile yuan and sell dollars. That would also weaken the petrodollar status. Then if they need another currency later, they could convert.... if allowed.
If China weren't a bunch of commies, I'd already have my dollars in yuan. the potential for for the exchange rate is great.
<< <i>If China weren't a bunch of commies, I'd already have my dollars in yuan. the potential for for the exchange rate is great. >>
I'm beginning to wonder if corrupt capitalists are really any better.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>China holds lots of gold. China holds lots of dollars. They choose to give the gold to Iran. HMMMMMMMM. >>
Probably because Iran said "no" to the dollars.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>China holds lots of gold. China holds lots of dollars. They choose to give the gold to Iran. HMMMMMMMM. >>
well, this is all sanction related.
I'm reading that Iran is limited in the amount it can buy with the yuan (and India's rupee) so gold is also being exchanged.
this may reaffirm to Iran the ease of a single, world recognized currency in oil transactions, but it may also underscore that it does not have to be the dollar.
How The U.S. Dollar Will Be Replaced The author's point is that a strong dollar measurement only means it is "strong" because the currencies it is being compared to are failing faster. It in no way is an indication of the dollar's buying power, except when buying those other failing currencies.
"There are no safe havens unless one reaches for the carrot dangled on a stick in the form of treasuries (TLT) and dollar bills (UUP). It is as if investors who have played the game fairly are uneasily realizing they have been dealt a series of sucker blows from the elites who in essence have fixed the game. Investors believe that treasuries and cash will protect their capital. This may be a conclusion founded on quicksand." -- Jeb Handwerger:
When Will The Flight Out Of Euros Benefit Gold and Silver Prices?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>China holds lots of gold. China holds lots of dollars. They choose to give the gold to Iran. HMMMMMMMM. >>
Probably because Iran said "no" to the dollars.
Yes but not out of choice. Due to the strict banking laws because of sanctions, theyve been forced to barter with most countries oil for necessities or gold.
By july there will be little action for irans oil, it will all be black market and the deals will be done with private entities, most likely arab crime groups.
With china not even able to secure insurance or underwriting for any ship carrying iranian crude once the sanctions go into effect in july. We shall have an interesting situation on our hands.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>China holds lots of gold. China holds lots of dollars. They choose to give the gold to Iran. HMMMMMMMM. >>
Probably because Iran said "no" to the dollars.
Yes but not out of choice. Due to the strict banking laws because of sanctions, theyve been forced to barter with most countries oil for necessities or gold.
By july there will be little action for irans oil, it will all be black market and the deals will be done with private entities, most likely arab crime groups.
With china not even able to secure insurance or underwriting for any ship carrying iranian crude once the sanctions go into effect in july. We shall have an interesting situation on our hands. >>
US is shooting itself in the foot with Iranian sanctions, forcing others out of using the petrodollar. This just opens the door to a whole new world of trade that does not include the US dollar. Very bad move that will expedite decline of the petrodollar.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
TRUTH
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Maybe they know a little more than some give them credit
<< <i>China, Japan to Use Yen, Yuan and Not the USD >>
I find it interesting to see that the majority of MISH's Absolute Return Fund clients havent made a dime over the last 3 years.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>I find it interesting to see that the majority of MISH's Absolute Return Fund clients havent made a dime over the last 3 years. >>
put on your glasses, then see page 4
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>I find it interesting to see that the majority of MISH's Absolute Return Fund clients havent made a dime over the last 3 years. >>
put on your glasses, then see page 4 >>
That is exactly where I got my info. Put on your glasses and read page 5. In 2008 the fund had 25 account holders. In 2009 it had 141, with 185 now (added only 1 new account last year.) According to the nice little graph on page 4, the account value is lower today than in April 2009. And since the majority of account holders didnt get involved until 2009 or after, it is very easy to conclude that they havent made any money.
Graphs, charts and data mining are my business.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
"Top 5 countries using yuan for trade finance in Oct. were China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Germany and Australia."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Yuan mkt shr in global payments was 0.84% in Oct. vs. 0.86% in Sept.
Yuan payments value rose 1.5% in Oct. vs. 4.6% growth for all currencies: Swift
Are the above quoted stats supposed to be read as positive for the yuan? I see declining growth and market share (which is tiny to begin with).
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>I should hope that China uses its own currency.
Yuan mkt shr in global payments was 0.84% in Oct. vs. 0.86% in Sept.
Yuan payments value rose 1.5% in Oct. vs. 4.6% growth for all currencies: Swift
Are the above quoted stats supposed to be read as positive for the yuan? I see declining growth and market share (which is tiny to begin with). >>
What's positive for the yuan (and negative for the dollar) is the growing acceptance of yuan by China's trading partners. More coffin nails for the petrodollar, but some refuse to accept it.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Any updated numbers on Mish's fund? >>
Actually it's not "Mish's fund." It is one fund at Sitka Pacific Capital Management where Shedlock is an investment advisor. It is also important to note that Mish's very observant and educational blog is not assoaciated with his employer. But you already knew that.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i> What's positive for the yuan (and negative for the dollar) is the growing acceptance of yuan by China's trading partners. More coffin nails for the petrodollar, but some refuse to accept it. >>
The dollar/ petrodollar/ fiat buck, whatever someone wants to call the US Dollar, is mighty big, and it will take a very large number of little tiny nails to bury it.
Some here insist that we or our children or their children will live to see the dollar dead and the coffin finished nailed shut and the US Dollar buried and forgotten, others are more skeptical. But is it wrong to "refuse to accept" any one person's opinion/ prediction about the future? Particularly trite opinions framed as glib all-or-nothing certainties? Most rational folks see the world as more complex and subtle than that, with many more moving parts.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Some here insist that we or our children or their children will live to see the dollar dead and the coffin finished nailed shut and the US Dollar buried and forgotten, others are more skeptical. But is it wrong to "refuse to accept" any one person's opinion/ prediction about the future? Particularly trite opinions framed as glib all-or-nothing certainties? Most rational folks see the world as more complex and subtle than that, with many more moving parts. >>
My rational and praticularly trite opinion is that the dollar is imploding. This opinion is not an all-or-nothing certainty but dictates the dollar will become much less valuable. FACT: The dollar is being slowly replaced on the world stage and quickly devalued on the home front. Prepare for the outcome of this - or don't.
When one looks at the "complex" Amercian economy and all of it's "moving" parts, the dollar is the primary gear. Take you eye off the dollar and you might as well be blind.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>I should hope that China uses its own currency.
Yuan mkt shr in global payments was 0.84% in Oct. vs. 0.86% in Sept.
Yuan payments value rose 1.5% in Oct. vs. 4.6% growth for all currencies: Swift
Are the above quoted stats supposed to be read as positive for the yuan? I see declining growth and market share (which is tiny to begin with). >>
What's positive for the yuan (and negative for the dollar) is the growing acceptance of yuan by China's trading partners. More coffin nails for the petrodollar, but some refuse to accept it. >>
Less than 1% and down vs peers is "growing acceptance"? I see Germany on this list. What did they buy? If they bought a plastic toy for 8 yuan would that be considered as Germany using the yuan for payment? Really, what did Germany buy and how much did they spend.
Im gonna take a trip out to Sonoma. Maybe share a bottle with the guys.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Think about it. The Chinese have the ability to manipulate the value of their currency, but not the US dollar. So why not give the world a bunch of yuans and then devalue them? >>
Why not, it's worked so far for the FED. However, as end of the dollar ponzi nears, dollar insurance keeps getting cheaper.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey