Ivan Rodriguez retires after 21 seasons, top 5 all time, maybe top 3???
miconelegacy
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Childhood star in my teens. Considered Top 10 all time. Some things I read say 5th or 6th all time behind Piazza then Campanella.
Certainly HOF bound....
Interesting read.
There are currently 13 catchers in major league baseball’s Hall of Fame. Of these 13 players, five have a career batting average north of .295 and four have hit more than 300 home runs. No player has accomplished both. Let me rephrase that. No player in the Hall of Fame has done both, not Fisk, not Bench, not even Berra. The only player who has is Ivan Rodriguez and unless he goes hitless in his next 127 at-bats he will retire with both a .295 batting average and 300 plus home runs.
Ivan Rodriguez, a 14-time all-star, 13-time gold glove winner, and 7-time silver slugger winner has hit over .300 ten times in his career and ranks #1 all-time by catchers in runs, hits, doubles and total bases. He ranks 7th in home runs, 6th in runs batted in 6th in stolen bases. In the 2003 playoffs Rodriguez hit .313/.390/.522 with 21 hits, five doubles, three home runs, ten runs and 17 runs batted in in 17 games.
He is the only catcher in the history of baseball to have 35 home runs and 25 stolen bases in the same season. In fact, no other catcher has a 20/20 season on his resume. He and Mike Piazza are the only two catchers who have hit 20 or more home runs with a .300 batting average or better in 5 five or more seasons.
Arguably the best defensive catcher in major league baseball history, Ivan Rodriguez has a Hall of Fame Monitor score of 224, while a likely hall of famer has a 100 and a Hall of Fame Standards score of 56 while the average hall of famer averages a 50. The list of 10 most comparable players include 5 current hall of fame players, 4 that are not yet eligible and Ted Simmons who when comparing to current hall of fame catchers ranks 1st in hits and doubles, 2nd in runs batted in, 4th in home runs, 5th in runs scored, and 6th in batting average.
Jose Canseco has made verbal public and written claims that he has supplied steroids and human growth hormone to Ivan Rodriguez. Will he and should he get into the baseball hall of fame?
Certainly HOF bound....
Interesting read.
There are currently 13 catchers in major league baseball’s Hall of Fame. Of these 13 players, five have a career batting average north of .295 and four have hit more than 300 home runs. No player has accomplished both. Let me rephrase that. No player in the Hall of Fame has done both, not Fisk, not Bench, not even Berra. The only player who has is Ivan Rodriguez and unless he goes hitless in his next 127 at-bats he will retire with both a .295 batting average and 300 plus home runs.
Ivan Rodriguez, a 14-time all-star, 13-time gold glove winner, and 7-time silver slugger winner has hit over .300 ten times in his career and ranks #1 all-time by catchers in runs, hits, doubles and total bases. He ranks 7th in home runs, 6th in runs batted in 6th in stolen bases. In the 2003 playoffs Rodriguez hit .313/.390/.522 with 21 hits, five doubles, three home runs, ten runs and 17 runs batted in in 17 games.
He is the only catcher in the history of baseball to have 35 home runs and 25 stolen bases in the same season. In fact, no other catcher has a 20/20 season on his resume. He and Mike Piazza are the only two catchers who have hit 20 or more home runs with a .300 batting average or better in 5 five or more seasons.
Arguably the best defensive catcher in major league baseball history, Ivan Rodriguez has a Hall of Fame Monitor score of 224, while a likely hall of famer has a 100 and a Hall of Fame Standards score of 56 while the average hall of famer averages a 50. The list of 10 most comparable players include 5 current hall of fame players, 4 that are not yet eligible and Ted Simmons who when comparing to current hall of fame catchers ranks 1st in hits and doubles, 2nd in runs batted in, 4th in home runs, 5th in runs scored, and 6th in batting average.
Jose Canseco has made verbal public and written claims that he has supplied steroids and human growth hormone to Ivan Rodriguez. Will he and should he get into the baseball hall of fame?
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Edit: The only thing McGwire did was hit home runs, which without steroids, who knows if he would have hit 583. His BA is nothing to write home about and he never won an MVP. I don't think McGwire should be a HoFer.
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<< <i>but I think he was on steroids like the others. >>
That would be horrible rationale for barring someone, concrete proof sure. But the "I thinks" and "he bulked up" comments really get me down - for any player not just Pudge. It's a crime that Jeff Bagwell isn't already in the Hall of Fame. And just to be fair to judgebuck I am taking his quote waaay out of context here - not saying you share that sentiment at all. I'm biased and I'm in a part of the country that loves Pudge and pushes this talk aside with him, but I think he's a no doubt, first ballot, slam dunk, First Ballot Hall of Famer.
All that goes out the window if some giant steroid news breaks.
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Such as Palmiero.
cathching is all blood and guts. No roid blocks the plate. He was exceptional right out of the box.
His arm is legendary...such as a whole generation of base stealers didn't run on him
the fact that he could hit is merely a bonus.
Unless roid players can be proven w/o a doubt they enhanced their ability they should be overlooked and given their honors.
Piazza was a better hitter, bench was awesome, liked Ted Simmons also, never saw campy or Berra or before.....
But if I started an all star team....pudge is my catcher hands down.
HOFer....no doubt
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I believe he becomes eligible in 2013. Shouldn't be a question but you never know how those baseball writers think
I'm a huge Pudge fan, too, and I think he should be in the HOF. But, I also think that there will be some who are kept out because they either were proved or admitted using steroids and others who kept their mouth shut or who didn't get caught who will get in. I contend that there was a whole generation of players who used steroids, some of who will get in the HOF and others who won't because they either admitted it or got caught.
Perhaps, there should be a wing in the HOF for the "best of the steroid era."
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<< <i>Perhaps I was a little strong when I said that I believed Pudge was on steroids because he responded "Only God knows" when asked. My point is that if he was never on steroids, then he would have surely denied it. He evaded the question much like McGwire did when he said to Congress that "I'm not here to talk about the past."
I'm a huge Pudge fan, too, and I think he should be in the HOF. But, I also think that there will be some who are kept out because they either were proved or admitted using steroids and others who kept their mouth shut or who didn't get caught who will get in. I contend that there was a whole generation of players who used steroids, some of who will get in the HOF and others who won't because they either admitted it or got caught.
Perhaps, there should be a wing in the HOF for the "best of the steroid era." >>
I don't think you were, I just didn't want you to think I was calling you out. Personally, I think he used, like I think a lot of players in the 90s and early 00s used. I don't think it was prolific or for anything other than to enhance recovery time and keep him on the field. But we don't know and until there is undeniable proof the writers/fans can't hold that against him or any player.
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<< <i>Yes.....CANSECO...controversial; but correct. Canseco mentioned Brett Boone and Brett Boone fell off the edge of the planet in 1 off season. Pudge was a bulky rock in his prime...when they started cracking down on PED's he straight up got skinny. I really believe that he was a great player; but the writers have already spoken. No chance he gets in. Sorry Pudge fans. >>
I think it much more likely that you are out of touch than the Ken Rosenthal's of the world.
Ken Rosenthal on Pudge
The voters spoke on McGwire and Palmeiro. Two guys who admitted and/or tested positive. A mention by a Jose Canseco and a cryptic answer isn't really proof positive someone juiced.
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and if found to be users of this PED should be disqualyfied from voting.
I don't agree with all of the writers thinking towards PED's. And yes they have proof on virtually nobody. You mentioned that the writers spoke on McGwire. You're aware that they voted long before he admitted to the usage and never tested positive? Like I said...I don't agree with all of it; but the writers are not voting in anyone connected to roids. No positive tests or anything on Bagwell...and he isn't getting in. Look at his stats...they are fantastic. When Clemens, Bonds or Sosa make it in...then let me know that I'm out of touch. I'm just speaking reality.
Mickey71
Interesting read by Joe Posnanski (it's a year old because obviously Alomar and Blyleven are in)
Bagwell not already being in is a huge crime. I echo Joe's sentiments that I'd rather 100 PED users gain enterance than 1 deserving non-user be denied.
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1) Pudge Rodriguez
2) Johnny Bench
3) Mike Piazza
4) Carlton Fisk
5) Gary Carter
<< <i>Bagwell has gone from 41% to 56% in his two years on the ballot. Whats the reasoning for that, I thought he was a user? The Palmeiro's and McGwire's and Gonzalez's of the world have stayed stagnet or fallen off completely.
Interesting read by Joe Posnanski (it's a year old because obviously Alomar and Blyleven are in)
Bagwell not already being in is a huge crime. I echo Joe's sentiments that I'd rather 100 PED users gain enterance than 1 deserving non-user be denied. >>
Bagwell has only suspicion of use. No allegations, failed tests or hear-say. Huge difference with Rodriguez. Rodriguez was a PED abuser and there should be no doubt about that. Bagwell, who the hell knows. I have never seen any evidence or allegations. Bagwell could very easily make the Hall in the next couple years. I highly doubt Irod ever will.
<< <i>
<< <i>Bagwell has gone from 41% to 56% in his two years on the ballot. Whats the reasoning for that, I thought he was a user? The Palmeiro's and McGwire's and Gonzalez's of the world have stayed stagnet or fallen off completely.
Interesting read by Joe Posnanski (it's a year old because obviously Alomar and Blyleven are in)
Bagwell not already being in is a huge crime. I echo Joe's sentiments that I'd rather 100 PED users gain enterance than 1 deserving non-user be denied. >>
Bagwell has only suspicion of use. No allegations, failed tests or hear-say. Huge difference with Rodriguez. Rodriguez was a PED abuser and there should be no doubt about that. Bagwell, who the hell knows. I have never seen any evidence or allegations. Bagwell could very easily make the Hall in the next couple years. I highly doubt Irod ever will. >>
.
the players started taking ped's in the 60's. just because it wasn't talked about doesn't mean it wasn't done.
As far as Bagwell, if he was suspended for suspicion of use, its most likely that he was using. Otherwise, I wouldn't even have been looked at in the first place. Bagwell doesn't belong either.
<< <i>
<< <i>Bagwell has gone from 41% to 56% in his two years on the ballot. Whats the reasoning for that, I thought he was a user? The Palmeiro's and McGwire's and Gonzalez's of the world have stayed stagnet or fallen off completely.
Interesting read by Joe Posnanski (it's a year old because obviously Alomar and Blyleven are in)
Bagwell not already being in is a huge crime. I echo Joe's sentiments that I'd rather 100 PED users gain enterance than 1 deserving non-user be denied. >>
Bagwell has only suspicion of use. No allegations, failed tests or hear-say. Huge difference with Rodriguez. Rodriguez was a PED abuser and there should be no doubt about that. Bagwell, who the hell knows. I have never seen any evidence or allegations. Bagwell could very easily make the Hall in the next couple years. I highly doubt Irod ever will. >>
Link to the story on where he failed a test?
The one difference is that pudge could be considered one of the top 5 if not top catcher of all time. A very key position which only has 13 other catchers inducted. Bagwell on the other hand might fall into the top 20 first basemen of all time. You are comparing very good to very elite.
In the end, unless you have evidence that the rest of the world does not, you are unable to honestly say one way or another. I on the other hand can honestly say with 100% certainty that he did or did not use.
Time will tell, and unless you are given a vote, you have to sit back and argue with the rest of us who have no influence on who gets in.
That said, he was a hall of fame talent and the best catcher of his era. I think he waits, but once the dam breaks on guys like Bonds and Clemens, the best of the rest will come in as well. JMHO.
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That dates back to 1974, and I'm sure others used them earlier than that.
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<< <i>If Arnold was taking PED's back in his very early days of bodybuilding so where athletes in many different sports...
That dates back to 1974, and I'm sure others used them earlier than that. >>
Mike all you have to do is go on line and check-out the story of the Sid Gillmans 1963 AFL San diego champinship team
and you'll get a clear picture on how long ped has been around,,,,,Jose
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Bagwell has gone from 41% to 56% in his two years on the ballot. Whats the reasoning for that, I thought he was a user? The Palmeiro's and McGwire's and Gonzalez's of the world have stayed stagnet or fallen off completely.
Interesting read by Joe Posnanski (it's a year old because obviously Alomar and Blyleven are in)
Bagwell not already being in is a huge crime. I echo Joe's sentiments that I'd rather 100 PED users gain enterance than 1 deserving non-user be denied. >>
Bagwell has only suspicion of use. No allegations, failed tests or hear-say. Huge difference with Rodriguez. Rodriguez was a PED abuser and there should be no doubt about that. Bagwell, who the hell knows. I have never seen any evidence or allegations. Bagwell could very easily make the Hall in the next couple years. I highly doubt Irod ever will. >>
Link to the story on where he failed a test?
The one difference is that pudge could be considered one of the top 5 if not top catcher of all time. A very key position which only has 13 other catchers inducted. Bagwell on the other hand might fall into the top 20 first basemen of all time. You are comparing very good to very elite.
In the end, unless you have evidence that the rest of the world does not, you are unable to honestly say one way or another. I on the other hand can honestly say with 100% certainty that he did or did not use.
Time will tell, and unless you are given a vote, you have to sit back and argue with the rest of us who have no influence on who gets in. >>
I certainly never claimed he failed a test. I also am not naive enough to believe he din't abuse PEDs. He's one of the more obvious ones. Of course that's my opinion and I don't have a vote, but there are certainly Hall voters that will feel the same way. That I can guarantee.
Borderline players like Palmeiro will not get in. I don't know if Sosa gets in either, because his success was so obviously a result of PEDs. But the top players from the era like those mentioned above - they were elite players before they started using. McGwire set a rookie record for HR in 86, Clemens was already established as the best pitcher in baseball before his use began, and Bonds already had a few MVPs by that time as well. Pudge was selected to the A.S team since his rookie year. Without PEDs, Clemens might have only won 6 Cy Youngs instead of 7, and Bonds might have finished his career with 700 HR instead of 762. But these are guys that would've gotten into the Hall with or without the help of PEDs. The writers will realize this, and after they have served their obligatory few years in purgatory, they will get in.
BTW, Pudge's best card might end up being his '92 Fleer Rookie Sensations card. It's a great and tough card. A year after his rookie cards, but with the massive overproduction of the '91 sets, this is the one I'd try to acquire in high grade.
<< <i>Top 5 catchers of all-time
1) Pudge Rodriguez
2) Johnny Bench
3) Mike Piazza
4) Carlton Fisk
5) Gary Carter >>
Fixed:
1. Bench
2. Berra
3. Cochrane
4. Rodriguez
5. Fisk
You are using too much common sense. Common sense and the writers are not in the same sentence. While I agree that most should get in...most will not. McGwire isn't getting in. Also, it has been talked about that Big Mac used roids very early on in his career. The writers hated Bonds before the roids. They hate him even more now.
<< <i>Borderline players like Palmeiro will not get in. >>
Are you saying Palmeiro was a borderline player before PEDS and assuming that he used most of his career? Or are you saying even with the PEDS that Palmeiro was a borderline player?
Because if its the later you're flat wrong... 3,000 hits and 500 HRs. 1 of 4 to do it.
I will gladly place a wager on the matter, Pudge will be in the HOF on the first or second ballot, barring some earth shattering steroid news. Bagwell will already be in at that point. Now if any of us are around here in 7 years may be the real test...
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<< <i>You are using too much common sense. Common sense and the writers are not in the same sentence. >>
+1
EDIT: Most baseball writers imo, not all.
<< <i>Are you saying Palmeiro was a borderline player before PEDS and assuming that he used most of his career? Or are you saying even with the PEDS that Palmeiro was a borderline player? >>
Borderline HOFer would be a better way to put it
Great career numbers, but PEDs or not, at no point in his career was he considered one of the very best, which I think is a requirement for HOF.
Only 4 A.S. games in 20 years and his best MVP finish was 5th. He was just overshadowed by too many other players from that era especially at that position.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are you saying Palmeiro was a borderline player before PEDS and assuming that he used most of his career? Or are you saying even with the PEDS that Palmeiro was a borderline player? >>
Borderline HOFer would be a better way to put it
Great career numbers, but PEDs or not, at no point in his career was he considered one of the very best, which I think is a requirement for HOF.
Only 4 A.S. games in 20 years and his best MVP finish was 5th. He was just overshadowed by too many other players from that era especially at that position. >>
I knew you meant borderline HOF, not player. But man if he doesn't test positive, 3,000 hits and 500 HRs that makes you a 1st ballot guy. 3000 hits alone does it.
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