Exactly what is the issue with hand-cut cards graded "authentic"?

Hank36

If I understand the PSA "rules" correctly, when a card was only made available as part of a panel or sheet, and the person who cut the card somebow did a poor job of cutting the card, why does PSA refuse to assign a number grade to the card, instead judging it merely "authentic"? Granted, most of the time a hand-cut card is going to look like a hand-cut card, but being that the grading of cards is always going to be subjective, is it that difficult for PSA to grade one cutting job relative to another cutting job? I have trouble seeing the "authentic" grade as anything but a cop-out. But perhaps I'm looking at it from the wrong perspective. What issue am I overlooking as far as hand-cut cards are concerned?

mariotown

It has been my experience that a hand-cut card must meet the size requirements according to the guides for the issue or it is classified as AUTHENTIC. Even a poorly cut card can be given a numeric grade as long as the size requirements are still met.

Kevin

Hank36

I can understand the purpose of requiring a machine-cut card to meet the size requirement, but when a card can only be handcut, why can't a card cut smaller than PSA's size requirement for machine-cut cards be reflected with an actual subjective grade, measuring it against other hand-cut cards? If a hand-cut card is, by definition, "trimmed", simply grading it "authentic" ignores every other relevant aspect of the card--surface, printing, corners, etc. Can't they grade these other aspects of the card and then issue a qualifier relating to the handcutting job? Machine-cut cards and hand-cut cards are two different, easily distinguishable categories of cards--it seems like a copout to not grade at all one category of card, based on a standard commonly applied to a completely different category of card.

Unless there is another issue that I am completely missing.

KbKards

Slapping Authentic on everything cut smaller than originally intended is the closest PSA can get to everyone agreeing with their grade and understanding the system. On cards issued with cut lines like Bazooka if you have a full size card showing lines as issued then you'll get a grade based on the condition of the card. Think of that type of card as being just like a regular unaltered Topps card, if it hasn't been trimmed then it will receive a numerical grade. But if the Topps card has been trimmed then it won't receive a grade and will be labeled Authentic. So when the Bazooka card is cut smaller than its originally intended size, PSA is also calling it trimmed and calling it the same Authentic grade as a trimmed Topps card. On the grading scale a trimmed card's Authentic grade technically falls below any numerical grade given to an original full size card. But to collectors familiar with the individual issue, the value and desirability of Authentic grade cards can exceed the interest in cards that received low numerical grades.

Hank36

<< <i> But to collectors familiar with the individual issue, the value and desirability of Authentic grade cards can exceed the interest in cards that received low numerical grades. >>


That kind of makes sense--the cards I was wondering about were some 1974 Lipton Soup Hockey cards on Ebay right now. I don't think they look bad at all (certainly better than any PSA 1 I've ever seen) but looking at the overall population of the set, 106 cards out of 166 submitted have been rated "authentic"--for PSA to simply refuse to offer any sort of opinion comparing nearly two-thirds of all cards submitted just seems like a massive waste of everybody's time. These aren't 1975 Topps Baseball Minis--why grade them as through they are?

KbKards

What grade would you like to see PSA put on a razor sharp mint condition card with no black lines at all showing on all four sides?

Hank36

I'd just like to know how different cards in this set stack up against one another--any print defects, rough edges, issues affecting the surface, problems with particular cards? Judging by the scans, these aren't razor-sharp mint-condition cards.

KbKards

Please answer the question. I gave you the description of the card - razor sharp mint condition with no black lines at all on all four sides.

Hank36

I don't know--let's say HC equals "hand cut". Then a "razor sharp mint condition with no black lines at all on all four sides" might be a PSA 9 (HC) or a PSA 9Q or something--and easily distinguishable from a PSA 6Q or a PSA 6(HC) from the same set. Isn't that the point of getting cards graded and checking the population reports?

KbKards

So if the hand cut card with all the original black borders cut off can get a 9HC or 9Q, then what grade does the same hand cut mint card get if it shows all four full original black lines? What if the first card with no black lines had a dinged corner and I cut it to be even smaller in order to get it back to mint condition? Should everything be graded the same 9HC or 9Q? What happens if the same condition mint card is showing only one line, two lines, or 3 lines? Is there a unique grade for each one, or are they all the same 9HC or 9Q?

mikeschmidt

Hank:

The issue with your proposal is that, without a standard between a number and authentic, any collector can simply trim down the cards until they have perfect centering and corners, getting smaller and smaller each time. Cards distributed normally have a defined size and set of attributes. Hand Cut cards should have some standards to be compared in a like-to-like fashion with factory cut cards. The most important of which is sizing (defined here as having proper borders).

Hank36

Obviously a card that meets the size requirement would grade higher than a trimmed card--but while I don't have a formula at my fingertips, would it be that difficult to issue a grade based on the amount of border that has been trimmed off of a particular card--the more missing cardboard, the lower the grade?

It's not that I'm making a proposal or trying to come up with a formula on the fly, but when I consider purchasing a somewhat hard-to-find card graded PSA "Authentic" and discover that 63% of all cards from that set ever submitted to PSA for grading were, essentially, never graded, I guess I'm left scratching my head. It's not a question of determing how these cards stack up against standard-issue trading cards--I just want to buy a card with a fairly good idea how that card stacks up against other copies of that same card, and against other cards in that set. Usually the population reports are much more helpful.

I'm just surprised that a company that is in the business of grading product hasn't figured out a formula to grade this particular product. But if I'm upsetting the apple cart by questioning this, I apologize.

JoeBanzai

Well Hank here's some more fuel for the fire.

Most Bazooka issues were panels of three, so at least the middle card is going to be sacrificed when the cards are cut, no matter how well cut they are. Of course if you "need" the middle card graded, you have just ruined the other two.

I don't really have any solution, but because of this, cards are being destroyed every day.

Would be nice to know if PSA regards the dotted lines as part of the card. Perhaps if you could cut the dotted lines perfectly down the center, the cards would all grade.

It also seems to me there might be an allowance for one border without the lines, as certain Bazookas I have seen on eBay have gotten fairly good grades with (only) one side missing the dots.

Then there are the '68 Bazookas that have no dotted lines.

Joe

Edited to add; It would be nice if PSA would address some of these questions.

1954

I have been collecting 1959 Bazooka Football and Baseball cards for a couple of years now. I can not believe how SGC is so inconsistant on this issue. In all fairmess PSA has missed a couple too. The two factors in order to get a numerical grade is size and that 100% of the border must be present. I have some incredible looking Bazooka cards that have 95% border and they have rejected the card in giving it a number as a grade.

gregmo32

So my question is, how much border is allowed/necessary outside the dotted line for a card to be considered cut properly?
And are there people expert enough to trust letting them cut your cards for you, for a fee?
I mangled some rare cards in my only attempt.