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Of retirees, who u think is in the HOF?
MinorLeaguer
Posts: 497 ✭✭✭
Feel free to voice whatever sport you like. For baseball, I think Griffey jr, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine. Horrible to think Clemens may not get in. If they do not let in the juicers in, then who? 2nd tier are: Schilling? Biggio? Smoltz, Bagwell? B. Williams? Sheffield? I say Oliva will eventually get by vet committe.
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Griffey
Thomas
Piazza
Smoltz
Maddux
Glavine
Biggio
Johnson
Sheffield
Jeff Kent -- more HRs at 2nd base than anyone in MLB history + MVP
I say no to Curt schilling. Reminds me of Jack Morris.
Larry Walker, no.
(i have no comment about Clemens and Bonds)
Bonds
<< <i>Cant let Bonds or Clemens or other 'cheaters' in before Pete Rose gets in! >>
+1
Kirby Puckett Master Set
<< <i>
<< <i>Cant let Bonds or Clemens or other 'cheaters' in before Pete Rose gets in! >>
+1 >>
Oh jeez not this argument again?
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<< <i>
<< <i>Cant let Bonds or Clemens or other 'cheaters' in before Pete Rose gets in! >>
+1 >>
-1
Pete Rose voluntarily signed a lifetime ban. He BET on baseball, cardinal rule #1.
<< <i>Bonds should be in. He is top 5 all time, I don't care if he took steroids or not, and I don't even like him. >>
I don't want this thread to take a curve, but when you have pitchers juicing, what does it actually give them? So they can throw the ball a few miles per hour faster, can last later into innings, and any injuries can be minimized.
Hitters, what? They swing a little bit quicker, hit the ball a little bit further. Bonds put so many balls in the water, so not on juice they go in the stands.
Bottom line in my opinion, juice or not, there are so many that didn't get caught, so many that still do it and it can't be detected, Clemens and Bonds both get in.
"Live everyday, don't throw it away"
<< <i>I forgot Pedro Martinez ...I actually think he's a few years short of HOF credentials (but does have 3 Cy Youngs)...thoughts? >>
I agree those 3 CY Youngs and a championship the last year he played with the sox.
"Live everyday, don't throw it away"
Mike Mussina has more wins (and just one more loss) than Jim Palmer. Is he a HOFer?
<< <i>Chipper Jones, first ballot 5 years after the end of this season. >>
Look at OP, retirees
<< <i>Tim Raines should, but likely won't. >>
Suffers from the same problem as McGwire, Palmerio
Ivan Rodriguez is the best not yet mentioned. Then maybe Kevin Brown, who definitely isn't deserving
Probably not but he's the guy Lou Gehrig had to beat for most consecutive games played. So hes #3 which is cool to me.
Hes a common in the T206 and T205 set for like 20.00 low grade.
One guy that got overlooked IMHO is Kevin Brown. He had numbers that compare favorably to several Hall of Famers and was gone after one vote. One guy that technically hasn't retired but may be put into a 'forced retirement' if he can't find work that should be a first ballot guy is Pudge Rodriguez. What he did on defense alone was incredible.
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<< <i>One guy that got overlooked IMHO is Kevin Brown. . >>
His W-L is 211 - 144
Bob Welch is 211-146 -- enough said
No Sheffield
No McGwire
No Palmeiro
No Ramirez
Smoltz - 1st Ballot - Gets points for class
Would like to see Jack Morris get in, but odds are good with the next few years crop of players
<< <i>
<< <i>One guy that got overlooked IMHO is Kevin Brown. . >>
His W-L is 211 - 144
Bob Welch is 211-146 -- enough said >>
Wins and Losses are a horrible way to measure a pitcher. Let's just say a pitcher goes 7 innings for a particular start. He gets a win or loss attached to his name on a game which he only controlled 38% of the outcome. Enough said....
Compare the numbers of Don Drysdale to Kevin Brown. Not just advanced stats like WAR (which is virtually the same). But look at Innings pitched, K's, hits per 9, K's per 9, Walk to K ratio and tell me why its so outlandish that Brown is not a viable HOF candidate. Drysdale also has 2 less wins and 22 more losses.
Wins are kind of like how much money a movie grosses, it's nice, but does it really tell you how great the movie is? Sometimes great movies gross a lot of cash, sometimes really crappy movies do too, and sometimes nobody sees a great movie and we don't appreciate the greatness until years later... if ever.
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<< <i>Feel free to voice whatever sport you like. For baseball, I think Griffey jr, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine. Horrible to think Clemens may not get in. If they do not let in the juicers in, then who? 2nd tier are: Schilling? Biggio? Smoltz, Bagwell? B. Williams? Sheffield? I say Oliva will eventually get by vet committe. >>
Of those you mentioned- I would say everybody but Clemens, Bernie Williams and Gary Sheffield should get in. Oliva I think has an argument and I wouldn't be upset if he got in but I don't know if it will actually happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Chipper Jones, first ballot 5 years after the end of this season. >>
Look at OP, retirees >>
I know that. Chipper will be a retiree next year, just thought I'd throw it out there.
Brett Farve
Johnathon Ogden
Warren Sapp
Randy Moss
Larry Allen
Michael Strahan
Orlando Pace
Junior Seau
Kurt Warner
Tim Brown
Walter Jones
and
Cris Carter!
IMF
Schill might not be the most liked pitcher. But the guy was a winner. And he pitched his butt off. And he fits in very nicely with the starting pitchers that are already enshrined in Cooperstown.
<< <i>It's embarassing to mention Kevin Brown and the HOF in the same sentence >>
Why? Because he was a jerk? You don't like him? Is the only suspected PED usage part of that "103 list" that only Arod and David Ortiz have been outed on? He may have been named in the Mitchell Report as well.
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<< <i>Schilling is what a HOFer is all about. He had big seasons, and he had his biggest performances on the biggest stages. Look at the man's postseason resume! It is insane! In twelve postseason series, he never had a losing record. His W-L total is 11-2, and he did that with a lifetime 2.23 ERA. Keep in mind, in Game 1 of the 2004 ALCS, he gave up 6 earned runs in 3 innings. If you take out that game, his era is 2.07. His regular season record is excellent too. From 1992-2004, nobody in baseball completed more games than Schilling. His lifetime ERA is 3.46, but he did that in the steroid era. His ERA+ is a stout 128 (better than Seaver, Palmer, Marichal, Feller, etc). His biggest knock is that he "only" won 216 games. But, he did that with great stats, a great postseason record, and a winning percentage of nearly .600.
Schill might not be the most liked pitcher. But the guy was a winner. And he pitched his butt off. And he fits in very nicely with the starting pitchers that are already enshrined in Cooperstown. >>
You bring up an interesting point: taking into account postseason numbers. I don't think you should hold bad postseason numbers or none/very little postseason numbers against a guy. (Hey it's not X players fault he was on a bad team). But I do think it could be used as a tipping case for borderline guys. I think Schilling ultimately gets in for the reasons you listed. Wins hopefully will matter less and less, especially as guys should be getting fewer and fewer as the advent of relief specialists has really cut into guys totals the past 10-15 years and I don't think that will be held against him. I also think Bernie Williams and Andy Pettitte's postseason resumes get them in.
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<< <i>
<< <i>It's embarassing to mention Kevin Brown and the HOF in the same sentence >>
Why? Because he was a jerk? You don't like him? Is the only suspected PED usage part of that "103 list" that only Arod and David Ortiz have been outed on? He may have been named in the Mitchell Report as well. >>
No, mainly because me and the other 2.1% (I REPEAT 2.1%) people with HOF votes must think the same way
IMF
<< <i>Compare the numbers of Don Drysdale to Kevin Brown. >>
My issue against Brown has always been that there were too many pitchers from his generation better than him. Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, Martinez, Glavine, Smoltz, Mussina, Schilling, Rivera
Most might disagree, but I would have to put Brown in the Pettitte and Wells group -- not Mussina and Schilling
For Drysdale the list would be Gibson, Spahn, Roberts, Koufax, Ford, Marichal. For Spahn despite a seven year overlap in career, they were born 15 years apart
Looking closer, Brown seems like an ok choice. Better than Gossage and Sutter. But he won't get in. Definitely passes Tommy John or whomever as the best pitcher not in, which is sort of how I've intuitively seen him
<< <i>Football, Larry Allen, lock. First year I assume which I think is next year. >>
Check my avatar - you know I'm with you on this one - but the Pro Football HOF voters are frickin' weird when it comes to how they vote for players. I saw a show on the NFL Network about the top 10 players that should be in the HOF but aren't, and the strong opinions some of these voters have about nonsense are absolutely ridiculous. I think being an interior offensive lineman will hurt Allen's chances of being a first ballot, and one of the reasons the writers cited is there hasn't been a stat developed yet to measure how good a OL is.
On that show, some writers said they would never vote for a special teamer into the Hall - like Steve Tasker, Ray Guy, etc. We always hear that "special teams is a third of the game - offense, defense, and special teams." Apparently that doesn't mean crap to these writers. They scoff at the notion that being on the field 8-10 plays a game makes it impossible to consider that player one of the all-time greats. Well if Devin Hester ends up with 25-30 career return TDs, making him the best return man ever (as if he doesn't already wear that crown), then we as fans should get to vote on which writers should be kicked out of the HOF voting process.
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<< <i>No, mainly because me and the other 2.1% (I REPEAT 2.1%) people with HOF votes must think the same way >>
This is the same flaw with MVPs, Cy Youngs, and All Star Starters biased voters. And by no means am I trying to say that Brown should be a slam dunk, 1st ballot, 100% HOF'er. He should have been given more consideration. If you ultimately don't want to elect him because of the 6-7 guys in his generation that were better than him then fine. Although he has a higher WAR than Rivera and Smoltz (granted Mariano is a reliever and Smoltz spent 2-3 years as one as well and that should be factored in). While he's not better than that list of Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Rivera he can be compared and the fact that he only got 2.1% blows my mind.
There seems to be no consistency for the voting process. Some guys don't vote because a guy was a jerk, some guys vote if he was nice, some guys don't look that hard at stats, etc, etc, etc. And some change their own personal criteria across the same ballot. Albert Belle, too much of jerk NO, Eddie Murray, he's ok, Robbie Alomar, we'll punish him for a year. I would just like some consistency.
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75% of the Tigers infield are better choices than Morris: Evans, Trammell and Whitaker
Best career comparison in terms of high peak, postseason and even pitching style would have to be Bret Saberhagen, except of course with Saberhagen's injuries cutting far deeper
<< <i>I would just like some consistency. >>
Until this century, the voting was amazingly consistent. There were only three truly deserving candidates not inducted by the writers: Johnny Mize, Arky Vaughan and Ron Santo. With very few truly weak players getting in, Catfish Hunter and Luis Aparicio being the lowest level. But that was over 60+ years. Now in a mere 10 years we've seen Perez, Rice, Gossage and Sutter make it, with Bagwell sitting out. Molitor and Jenkins drug use was ok, but Raines and McGwire's was not
As bad a choice Rice was, at least Blyleven made it and Larkin was a good call. At least Morris still hasn't made it despite so many people who refuse to accurately look at his career
Waiting for a Cubs fan to criticize my spelling...
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A lot of people like Dawson, I always thought he was another poor choice. Though better than Rice, still can't see any way he is ahead of Dwight Evans. Despite an MVP award, just didn't have the same peak seasons as most of the guys listed above
<< <i>It's a crime that Bagwell didn't go in on the first ballot. Although I don't understand making a guy wait - you either are a hall of famer or your not. But Bagwell's number are other worldly. And I hate the argument 'ohhh look at him he looks like he roided.' >>
You don't have to just "look at him". Look at the major jump in his numbers. Look at all the known roiders he played with. Look at the ridiculous change in his appearance. Yeah, he roided.
<< <i>I also think Bernie Williams and Andy Pettitte's postseason resumes get them in. >>
Pettite doesn't belong. In his entire career, 16 seasons, he had maybe 2 years where he was an elite pitcher (1997 and 2005). And he roided at least one of those two years. Most of the time he was average or slightly better - lots of ERA+ years right in the 110 range. His vaunted postseason record? Yeah, he was 19-10. With a 3.83 ERA. Right in line with his career 3.88 ERA. If Jack Morris gets dinged - rightly - for his high ERA, Pettite should as well. I think Pettite will get in but he absolutely does NOT belong.
I don't think Mike Mussina belongs either. He's got a better case than Pettite but there was never a time when I thought "Yeah, this guy's a HOFer" when he was pitching.
Kevin Brown is a better choice than either one of them. The knock on Brown, really, is his health. Well, that and the PEDs thing. Fact is, though, he had more seasons where he was elite than either Mussina or Pettite. Neither of those guys had anything close to Brown's 1996 - 17-11, 1.89 ERA, 217 ERA+. 5 other seasons < 3.00 ERA (all under 2.70, in fact). But Brown doesn't belong either.
Tabe
<< <i>You don't have to just "look at him". Look at the major jump in his numbers. Look at all the known roiders he played with. Look at the ridiculous change in his appearance. Yeah, he roided. >>
So he hits 15, 18, 20, and then 39 home runs his first four years. Some would call that natural progression of becoming a better hitter. And then it's always between 27-47 homers a year except for the 95 strike season he hit 21 and his final season 2005 he only 3 (39 games.) Again I don't see a huge jump in numbers, I see a player getting better. Besides Caminiti who didn't start using until he got to San Diego, what other known steroid users did he play with? And just because you play with a steroid user, you yourself use? C'mon man I thought we were innocent until proven guilty here.
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