1815 Guatemala 8 reales - Scotland 4 shillings/6pence countermark KM-CC57 - NO DECISION BY PCGS????

candy2012mustang

Hi Guys-

No so happy with my last with my last submission to PCGS.

My Scotland countermarked 4 shillings/6 pence on 1815 guatemala 8 reales turns out to be too hard for PCGS to make a decision on.

The reason - 86 - No decision......

Upon further inquiry with PCGS, notes indicated that the ONLY reason for the 86 - was "countermark not known on a 1815 host coin"; and I was told they went to "outside consultants" and STILL made no decision.

Clearly, the countermark is genuine. See pics compare to KM CC57 in catalog (die marks indicated by red arrows). Also, coin is genuine. Leading experts say countermarks executed in 1820-1821 time period for this issuer.

PCGS made absolutely no mention of coin being "not genuine", neither of the countermark being bad.

Pretty straight foward to me. Genuine countermark, genuine coin, date of host coin prior to issuer executing countermark. Done deal.

Why is PCGS holding back on holdering this Discovery piece?????????








Thanks,
Kevin C.

tewcd

This is why I don't trust TPG's. They really have no clue what they're dealing with in non-modern-UK darkside varieties. Hell, they don't even get German States right half the time.

TwoKopeiki

PCGS is good with world coin types they've encapsulated before and are easy to attribute. Things like this - not so much. I gave up trying to get my War of Independence coins in their plastic. They simply lack the expertise. Last straw was when they returned an early Chihuahua piece for damage when in fact the counterstamps were applied to coins at the mint.

ormandh

I agree with your sentiment that tpg's do not have all of the answers! I do, however, have a problem with your coin for one reason. It is that your countermark appears to be much flatter and not the same in the devices than what is given with the photos of the genuine peices. I would have to agree with the grade. You received a refund, so I am not sure that I actually have a problem with how it was handled. Basically, there was no harm no foul, except that you still do not know whether it is genuine or not. I guess even a tpg such as PCGS does not have all of the answers?!! I am very interested to find out how this particular coin ends up with the consenses, so please let us know when you find out. -Dan

coinpictures

Go ATS. NGC has FAR more experience with world coins than PCGS.

pmac

<< <i>Go ATS. NGC has FAR more experience with world coins than PCGS. >>


My understanding, also.

olmanjon

I sent an 1893 Canadian Large cent with re-punched nine(which is sold on ebay) to ngc for certification and it came back with no mention of the re-punched nine on it. It was labeled 1893 Canada 1c-Au55 BN. I wrote on the submission slip about the re-punched nine. I called them and was told that NGC does not do varieties. Cost me $25 to certify a $15 coin instead of a $200 coin. So NGC doesn't do varieties either. I was told that ICCS does varieties. Any one know if they do or not?
Olmanjon

coinpictures

I believe ANACS also does varieties. Not sure about ICG. I would assume that ICCS does Canadian varieties.

Keep in mind though, that if you go ICCS, you will never be able to sell it as certified on eBay (not sure if that would impact your decision at all, but it's one of the parts of the eBay/ANA policy on "acceptable" third-party grading companies that has always rankled me).

candy2012mustang

further proof that other host date coins exist with this countermark. This auction Noble Numismatics PTY LTD.

"Lot 1609

RENFREWSHIRE, Greenock, John McKenzie & Son, four shillings and sixpence, a Ferdinand VII, Guatemala Mint eight reales, 1821 countermarked J.McK. & Son Greenock around 4/6 in the centre all in a sunken circle with indented edge (Davis 100). Attractive deep toned extremely fine, both coin and countermark very attractive and probably the finest known."

Link to auction- http://www.noble.com.au/auctions/lot/?id=11701

countermark

My area of knowledge is the series of British merchant countermarked dollars. I can assure you that your J McK merchant countermark is a genuine example. Interestingly I have a record of another 1815 coin, this one a Lima JP Ferdinand VII, with the same J McK countermark that has been graded by PCGS as VF35, Scotland KM CC57 with their reference number 619507.35/3636940. This was graded in January 2007. Hope that helps.

candy2012mustang

Just recieved the coin back fron NGC - Inellegable type.....

They dont certify private countermarked coinage.

hmm........

Well I wrote an email to Anacs

-Kev