A Honus Wagner is up for sale...

Stooge

Didn't know if anyone had seen this...click this link Evidently this collector has all 3 of the big T-206 cards, which includes the Wagner, Plank and Magee.

It is a good read.

Paul.

jeffcbay

It's strange that the article never mentions what the card's grade is... auction link

yankeeno7

I was fortunate enough to get a preview of this card soon after it was graded. I do not agree with the grade at all. There is no way this card meets VG standards. It was graded high IMO due to what the card is. It's a 1.5/2 at best, maybe even a 1. I think with that much corner wear, it would be considered paper loss. Here are a couple of pics I have...

jeffcbay

MiniDuff

I think you are being a little bit harsh in your assessment. The card is comfortably better than what would qualify as a 2 with SGC, though there is more rounding than a 3 should have. That said, the card has terrific eye appeal with no obvious creases, pinholes, etc. If SGC offered a 2.5 (they don't), it might have graded more accurately.


40 - VG 3

90/10 or better centering, corners more rounded--but not excessive, stronger creasing may exist. Poorer focus, registration, and discoloration, and staining are more noticeable.



30 - GOOD 2

Centered 90/10 or better. This card usually exhibits one or more of these characteristics: heavy print spots, heavy crease(s), pinhole(s), color or focus imperfections or discoloration, surface scuffing or tear, rounded and/or fraying corners, ink or pencil marking(s), and lack of all or some original gloss.


If you look at the 5 or so 1s that have sold over the last few years, every one is a mangled mess.

Stooge

I am certainly no expert, but it looks like the corners have been trimmed.

Paul.

Bigjohn69

well, thanks, that first link put spybots in my computer,, i just ran the scan before and after,,, blahhh,,,j

PeteZaria

<< <i>That said, the card has terrific eye appeal with no obvious creases, pinholes, etc. If SGC offered a 2.5 (they don't), it might have graded more accurately. >>



I'm not sure how obvious it is, but there certainly is a crease.

pmcollectour

That card presents very, very well in a three holder.

gregmo32

Nobody doubts that the card presents well, especially given the magnitude of it, but if that were a 1957 Topps Basketball card it would be a PSA 1.5 on a good day.

1960toppsguy

I'm not sure how that card could not be altered as all four corners appear as if they were equally rounded, I don't have the loot that it takes to own it so it's probably not my place to comment but if I did . . . I'd pass

Dpeck100

That right up is amazing!

The paragraph that shows the price graph is a stunning example of how much rare collectables can appreciate.

I can't wait to see how much this card brings. It is up to $363,000 already and if the prior high of $925,000 is the target for this grade it will be very interesting to see if it surpasses it and if so by how much.

Thanks for posting the link.

Dpeck100

This puppy is climbing. $531,000 already.

thunderdan

magnificent card. really nice eye appeal for the grade.

fkw

the ones tripping on the corner wear.

T206 cards like most from that Era, wear that way, its normal. They are made of multiple layers of paper and the top layer is almost like a paint or porcelain-like white smooth layer and will chip at corners or creases. the corners flake off ever so slightly a little bit over time (103 years). The stock is very brittle with no flex at all. you will never see a dogeared T206 card (unlike Topps cards). That card is not tamped with its a nice VG card, maybe slightly overgraded but the surface and image have great eye appeal and its easily in the top 10%-15% of all know T206 Wagners

here are 33 of them (of the est 60) if you care to look.... (its not a rare card as far as baseball cards go, its actually one of the more common contemporary Wagner cards around)
T206 Honus Wagner x 33


Now the Magie and Plank in this auction are a different story, very controversial to say the least.

11,000+ views and 170+ replies on a thread on another board, if you care to see what the fuss is about....
The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

psychump

Waverly recolored it + evidence of trimming= authentic

yankeeno7

No one argues that T206s, being 100+ years old, will commonly have that kind of corner wear. That much corner wear is paper loss no matter how you want to argue the point. There are also nmmt T206s that have survived any wear what so ever. Fact is, that card does NOT meet VG standards. I dont care what year its from, what set its from, or how rare it is. Take a look at that top right corner. There is clearly a layer missing, therefore, paper loss. Like Gregmo said, if that was a 57 Topps (or just about any other card), it would be sitting in a 1.5 holder.

pmcollectour

I for one do not believe that a T-206 Wagner should be under the same scrutiny as a 1957 Topps card.

I think that Wagner should be compared to other Wagners. It's that rare of a card. If that card presents better
then a PSA 1 or PSA 1.5 Wagner, then it deserves a VG 3 in my book.

yankeeno7

huh?? You are being sarcastic, right? The grade is the grade. It shouldnt matter if its a 2012 or an 1812. I will agree that not all (put your number grade here) are not all the same. But to say it's ok to give a card a better grade just because its rare and 100 years old is just crazy IMO. Can I sell you all my VG 52 Topps at NM/MT prices? I'll be happy to sell you all you want.

Edit to say....there are a lot of cards much more rare than the Wagner. It's not really all that rare of a card, only high demand because of the story that goes with it and the rarity it was thought to have at one time. Rare card? yes Unobtainable? only if people are not willing to sell.

We only know of the graded examples. How many old time collectors are hanging on to what they have and just dont want to tell anyone what they have? I would bet we could easily double what we know to exist.

pmcollectour

"The grade is the grade" can differentiate 2-3 grades depending on who's looking at the card.
We've seen PSA 8's cross to 10's, and many bumps and drops in grades in our lifetime.

Grading is subjective, so "the grade is the grade" never holds water in the real world.

sbfinley

All three major TPG's do consider the context of the card and the set it comes from when assigning a grade. Take the N172 Old Judge set for instance. Just scroll though ebay and check out some of the grades. I've seen N172's with half a scrapbook page adhered to the back get a PSA 3.

It's also has a SGC flip above it because many people prefer them for pre-war grading. I personally send my pre-war to SGC, 50-60-70's to PSA, and newer stuff to beckett. The market has seemed to dictate that in the past few years. I would venture to guess that PSA would give it a 3 as well and there would be no discernible difference between the price it would fetch in either slab.

yankeeno7

I have absolutely no problem with any card being in an SGC holder. I just think, just as PSA would have done, has given an over grade on this card.

fkw

Paper lose???

paper lose and corner wear are 2 completely different condition probs. Paper lose is to the surface... and in most cases its from removal from a scrap book or if the card got wet and stuck to another card when pulled apart. Natural wear to the corner is not technically paper lose in any way or form. This T206 Wagner has normal corner wear, Ive handled thousands of them over the years...

And NRMT+/MINT T206 cards are extremely rare (thats why such a high premium), they are cards that were lost over time, maybe found in a book or were in a trunk in the attic for 100 years. there is no such thing as a NRMT+/MINT T206 card that was in an active collection that whole 103 years, if so they would have some type of corner wear (no top loaders, 3 ring pages, or penny sleeves for the first 60+ years of its life will tend to do that)

NRMT+ T206 cards prob make up less than .10% of all surviving T206 cards (1/1000)

PS its in a SGC holder, because they are (now known to be) the best for this card, and other rarities from that Era. thats their specialty, SGC is more popular now with the guy who collect the rarer/high$ stuff.... PSA is known more for the common PreWar cards ie R319 and common T206 cards (because of the registry hype) but if it was in a PSA hold no one would notice either, they are the top 2 companies and have their own little niches...

yankeeno7

Thanks for the much needed laugh, FKW

fkw

Yankers7 maybe you should actually buy a T206 card and look at it in person sometime, you might learn something..... I was laughing long before you on this thread aloha

PS. a good 10% of you guys need to take a vacation to the Big Island sometime, Id like to meet up w/ ya in person and "talk story"

the rest of you guys are all cool in my book....

yankeeno7

For the record FWK, I have collected/bought/sold all sorts of vintage/modern/autos/etc for 30+ years and though I may not have handled THOUSANDS of T206s, I have handled hundreds, mostly in the 80s. The reason you dont know that is because Im not here trying to piss higher and further than everyone else like yourself. I was going to go into a full explanation of my viewpoint but what is the sense of talking to a brick wall? Feel free to know everything about everyone here though. I could care less.

yankeeno7

<< <i>

PS. a good 10% of you guys need to take a vacation to the Big Island sometime, Id like to meet up w/ ya in person and "talk story"
>>



::::eyeroll::::

aloha bra!!! Go talk some story with Dog.

pmcollectour

<< <i>

Well hold on there a second ... Just because grades can change doesn't mean they will ... and when they do change, they sometimes also go down.

That said, the question that comes to my mind about this card is why a SGC holder? And if this card was in a PSA holder what grade would it get and what price would it fetch? >>




Another board member (mickey71) just had 9 out of 15 cards bump up.

Grading is subjective.
The grade is not always the grade. Many of us resubmit because we understand that fatigue and human error can
effect the grade of an item.

otwcards

The card is GD to VG. Nothing wrong with seeing it in either a PSA 2 or PSA 3. I think some get hung up and miss the boat on lower grade cards. The difference between the presentation on a GD card and a VG card can be night and day. Keep in mind that the presentation of an EX card, a mere 2-3 grades higher, is completely different than that of a lower grade card.

I wish that some that are condemning the grade dealt more in the arena of lower grade vintage cards and perhaps they would have a better understanding of exactly what a VG card will look like.

The example provided exhibits typical wear patterns for the issue. While the corner wear may seem extreme, it isn't so much that it would preclude the card from garnering the assigned grade. And there's no doubt that PSA could also assign a similar condition card in the same grade.

otwcards

<< <i>"The grade is the grade" can differentiate 2-3 grades depending on who's looking at the card.
We've seen PSA 8's cross to 10's, and many bumps and drops in grades in our lifetime.

Grading is subjective, so "the grade is the grade" never holds water in the real world. >>



I will contend that when you're talking about the slight differences between a NM/MT card and a GEM card, your assessment can be applied. However, when getting into the lower eschelon grades, there is far less variation in grade possibilities. Certainly the eye appeal can be dramatic, but the technical grades are typically far more consistent within the PR to VG/EX grades.

grote15

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

Well hold on there a second ... Just because grades can change doesn't mean they will ... and when they do change, they sometimes also go down.

That said, the question that comes to my mind about this card is why a SGC holder? And if this card was in a PSA holder what grade would it get and what price would it fetch? >>




Another board member (mickey71) just had 9 out of 15 cards bump up.

Grading is subjective.
The grade is not always the grade. Many of us resubmit because we understand that fatigue and human error can
effect the grade of an item. >>





I think it's great for Mickey to get those bumps ... he'll most certainly make more cash now if he sells ... HOWEVER, it's my opinion that (in general) cards that bump are lower grade examples of the number they get. So if a card goes from 8.5 to 9 it's most probably a low quality 9 ... as apposed to a 9 that is a hair shy of a 10. >>




That is certainly possible but in my experience a low end 8 or 9 is just as likely to come from a raw submission than a review if only because reviews are more highly scrutinized. We all know that there are undergraded or high end cards for the grade. The key is to identify those if you're going to submit via the review service and even then in most cases a 20% success rate is considered quite impressive.

nightcrawler

<< <i>Yankers7 maybe you should actually buy a T206 card and look at it in person sometime, you might learn something..... I was laughing long before you on this thread aloha

PS. a good 10% of you guys need to take a vacation to the Big Island sometime, Id like to meet up w/ ya in person and "talk story"

the rest of you guys are all cool in my book.... >>






I have no idea what that post means, but it seems really wierd???

What does "talk story" mean anyway?

HoneyBadger

Not much to talk about here, no one here can afford this bad boy anyway!

Brick

snipe set.

Dpeck100

$707,000 after just a few days. It would seem like a foregone conclusion this blows through the $925,000 mark.

TNP777

I'll be manually sniping this one. No way do I trust an automated sniper this time around

cpamike

<< <i>I'll be manually sniping this one. No way do I trust an automated sniper this time around >>



Plus you'd save the snipe fee.

Dpeck100

This baby is up to $941,532.00

There are 10 days to go. No telling where this ends.

fiveniner

Looks graded fairly to me.