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Franklin collectors: When did the 1961 Proof DDR first get discovered?

SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 12,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have been looking through the Val Webb 1984 book on 1950-1964 Cameo Proofs. The discussion of 1961 proof half dollars in that book does not mention the DDR variety (the big one or the minor ones). The book does discuss 1956 Type 1 and Type 2 proof half dollars.

I recall that Rick Tomaska's 1991 book on Cameos also mentions the Type 1 and type 2 1956 half dollars (I do not recall if it mentions 1961 DDR half dollars). Mr. Tomaska's three other separate books on Franklin half dollars that were published after 1991 all mention the 1961 DDR half dollar.

The 1961 DDR half dollar has a very small population of PCGS and NGC certified coins (about 150-160 I think), relative to the total mintage of over 3 million.

So all of the above, particularly reading the Val Webb, book caused me to think about when the 1961 DDR half dollar first popped up on the hobby radar screen.

Anybody know the answer?

Comments

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,976 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just looking real quickly, I see that it's
    listed in the first edition of the CPG,
    published in 1990.

    I do recall that it was known in the
    error community well before that;
    I can't recall a particular article or
    listing for the first time, but I'm pretty
    certain it was a known major Doubled
    Die Proof coin even back in the 1970's...

    I'll try to find something earlier, if I can.
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,045 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If your thread is only going to get one response...I suppose that's a pretty good one to get. image
  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,495 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looked at some 61 proof sets the other day, carefully.
    Then outa know where a voice said, "None of them are Franklin DDR's"
    Guess they're pretty well known. I then asked, "what's a DDR", tryin my best to play stupid.
    Don't really know if he bought it though. Ya think there are any sets out there containing a Franklin DDR?
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 12,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Mr. Weinberg, any additional information you can dig up would be appreciated.

    Morgansforever: In answer to your question about whether there are any 1961 proof sets out there that contain a DDR, as of December 20, 2011 there was at least one such set.

    I know this is true because I got lucky, found the set, bought it (because the half dollar looked like it is a Cameo, not because I knew it contained a DDR half) and after buying it discovered that the half in the set is the major DDR.
  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,976 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please call me Fred.

    When someone calls me
    "Mr. Weinberg", I always
    look behind to see if my
    father is there!

    (even though I'm old now too!)
    - don't feel it however -
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,495 ✭✭✭✭✭
    <<I know this is true because I got lucky, found the set, bought it (because the half dollar looked like it is a Cameo, not because I knew it contained a DDR half) and after buying it discovered that the half in the set is the major DDR. >>

    Talk about lucky, geeez. A 65 Cam must go for North of $1200, right? Anyone know the highest graded?
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • ModCrewmanModCrewman Posts: 4,045 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is the PCGS Price Guide on the coin:

    PCGS Price Guide 63 64 65 66 67 68 69
    1961 50C Doubled Die Reverse 700 2000 3250 4750 10000 0 0
    1961 50C Doubled Die Reverse + 960 2150 3500 5750 0 0 0
    1961 50C Doubled Die Reverse, CA 750 2350 3750 8000 15000 0 0
    1961 50C Doubled Die Reverse, CA + 1070 2630 4600 9400 0 0 0

    There is only a single CAM graded example...Kevin's would definitely make 2.

    See this thread for pictures and discussion following Kevin's discovery.
  • CocoinutCocoinut Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bill Fivaz was quoted in the May 12, 1997 issue of Coin World:

    "Those that have been found soon after it was discovered (in the early or mid 1980s, I believe) are evidently in strong (collector) hands.I can't recall the last time I saw one for sale, either by private treaty or in a dealer ad."

    The article goes on to say that it was a $1200 coin in 1997.

    I have another clipping of an ad from Jeff Noe of Oklahoma City. I don't know the date of the ad, but he had 2 of them, both ANA certified. One was a PF63 for $850, and the other a PR64 for $1000.

    Jim
    Countdown to completion of my Mercury Set: 1 coin. My growing Lincoln Set: Finally completed!
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    I do believe the DDR was known about by collectors & dealers by 1985 or so, but was not widely known in the collecting community until the Red Book included it in the 1991 edition. I saw an example still in the proof set in 1983, it was not for sale and was kinda hard to identify through the hazed over packaging, but you could tell something dramatic was going on in that reverse of the Franklin. Since then, every 1961 proof set I opened or looked at has been checked, nada.
    Chat Board Lingo

    "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
  • frnklnlvrfrnklnlvr Posts: 2,750
    When was the Breen Book published? I would think it would have been listed if it was known at that time.
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 10,048 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If anyone out there has an old edition of Spadone's Variety and Oddity Guide from the early sixties-look to see if there's a "double shift" variety for the '61 Franklin. "Numismatic Scrapbook" magazine also had a column for collectors to report any oddities-I saw the first reporting I could find on the 1916/16 Buff from 1962 there. Spadone actually DID list the 1916 Buff but the photo was so badly retouched (to emphasize the spread) that it looked fake. I sure wish I had taken the listing of that variety a little more seriously!

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