Opinions needed on the Grade of this Coin

DeiGratia

Hello Everyone.

I would like to get a general consensus on the grade of this coin.

Any Likes or Dislikes ?

Maybe an opinion of Value ?

Thank You.

Zohar

I like it. Some wear at high points and fields. Overall nice look to it. $300-400 value. May be an overdate 4 over something.

tewcd

Does that look like a subtle attempt at polishing on the obverse fields to either side of old Leo's head? If not, what might cause that? I ask because I have that on a few large denomination coins from the same period.

DeiGratia

Zohar you are the man.

The Seller wanted $850 for it and I thought it was not worth that price.
Since I'm new to the market, I don't have a firm grasp on the prices yet.
I've done some research on Past auctions on Heritage, but I'm still iffy on unslabbed coins.

Thank you so much for your opinion.

tewcd

Even in MS60 this thing's not worth much more than $500.00. Was it an Ebay seller? There are a few on there that throw up 200% premiums on coins because they're old and they can't identify 'em. I guess its a defensive reflex against accidentally selling a million-dollar coin for a dollar. They must figure that if it's worth a lot, someone will buy it at this astronomical price, and if its not, they'll sucker someone into doing the same.

DeiGratia

Really?? Only $500 ?

Hmm according to the research I've been doing, Just recently on March 6th, an MS62 NGC sold for $977
Heritage

Nope, not on Ebay.
Here is the seller
Seller

Hmmm the prices seem all over the place or is it going up in value?
These Leopold Talers are hard to find in good grades and when you find one, the seller wants an arm and a leg for it.

If you run across any AU58 - MS62's at around $450-650 let me know
Thanks.

tewcd

Well, that may be a "TPG premium" or due to recent price inflation. I'm just going by book value, which sets it at $550 in MS 60 (I'm assuming raw). I tend to not go more than 20% above book value, so even by my rules, I wouldn't go above $600.00.

I just asked a dealer who deals in Talers that I know, and he said in the U.S. with a raw coin in the MS 60 ballpark, he'd price it at $650 and sell it for $575. I think he might respond differently if it was slabbed by NGC or PCGS, but I can't imagine more than a 15% premium on that. Zohar, your take?

Edit: Remember that Heritage has a 15% buyer's premium, meaning that someone bought this coin for $850.00 and paid a $127.00 premium

tewcd

Here's an earlier date, weaker strike, more wear, that books at around the same "value range" as the 1704:

http://www.ma-shops.com/brom/item.php5?id=80701001&lang=en

Prices for these things always seem to be crazy, but I try to check MA-Shops to do market analysis of these things. They have a bunch of different sellers under one site banner, and their prices are generally fairer than BIN prices on the Bay, or Heritage final sale prices.

DeiGratia

Thank you Tewcd.

Does your dealer have a hogmouth for sale?
I've been looking for one on MA / Heritage / Ebay for about a month now.
No bites yet.

Thanks.

tewcd

No, but I know who might. This guy doesn't have a website, but sells mostly at shows. I'm certain he has fair prices, and if he doesn't have a Hogmouth, he should know where to get a good deal:

Weiss

DeiGratia

Thanks Tewdc

Will give him a go

worldcoinguy

Nice hogmouth. I would have guessed it somewhere between a EF-45 and AU-53. Tewcd might be right about some subtle cleaning in the obverse fields with some retoning over it. This example would probably sit on the fence with a TPG; depends on which way the wind is blowing and whether or not the grader enjoyed his coffee that morning. In hand it might be more obvious.

I think book values are lagging behind market on these talers. In the last 5 years I have seen a steady increase in prices in nice higher end AU/MS examples. I have no doubt that a $500 slabbed taler in 60 would sell in a heartbeat. Maybe it is the Zohar vacuum effect (just kidding Zohar). I think a more realistic price is in the $650 - $700 range for a slabbed lower end MS examples. The gem MS-64+ talers from 1600s and 1700s have no accurate benchmark/price guide in my opinion. If it has eye appeal, there is no telling how high it can go.

MA Shops is certainly the best place for german dealers, but you have to factor in the EUR to $ and also take some attitudes towards grading into consideration. Personally, I buy 80% slabbed material because I do not care for cleaning (somethimes hard to tell on photos on MA Shops and not explicitly mentioned by dealers), and I am not always able to catch tooling or repaired mounts. Its been a 6 year learning process in the area of talers. The TPG is just another "professional opinion" to help me out. The old slab vs. non-slab argument has no black and white solution. I can say with absolute certainty that "marketability" and resale of talers in TPGs is substantially easier, so make your own decisions.

worldcoinguy

Hi Deigratia -
You should turn on your PM function to receive private messages.