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Hard Times Token potential bidder warning: UPDATED 1/17/13!
Broadstruck
Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
NGC for the last couple months has been wrongly designating HT-19 Rarity-5 Daniel Webster Tokens.
These two examples below are available for bidding at Ebay and Heritage... Both sellers have been contacted by me in regard to the wrong slab insert designation.
I had seen a 3rd example AU Details on EBay about 1-2 months ago but thought it was just a fluke and didn't retain an image.
All so far are common Rarity-1 HT-20/HT-62's being called Rarity-5 HT-19/Low-61's.
Beyond the lightning bolt on the reverse the HT-19 and HT-20 Webster reverse ship designs look nothing alike and should be easily identified.
If your just going by the TPG slab insert designation you could easily be paying upwards of $1500 for a $200 token.
These two examples below are available for bidding at Ebay and Heritage... Both sellers have been contacted by me in regard to the wrong slab insert designation.
I had seen a 3rd example AU Details on EBay about 1-2 months ago but thought it was just a fluke and didn't retain an image.
All so far are common Rarity-1 HT-20/HT-62's being called Rarity-5 HT-19/Low-61's.
Beyond the lightning bolt on the reverse the HT-19 and HT-20 Webster reverse ship designs look nothing alike and should be easily identified.
If your just going by the TPG slab insert designation you could easily be paying upwards of $1500 for a $200 token.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>Wow, good catch Broadstruck! Has Heritage pulled the lot? Has the eBay seller pulled the lot? Have you been able to alert NGC about the problem? >>
I just contacted HA this morning and as before I feel they will just add a note to the description that it's wrongly designated and really a R-1 HT-20.
As long as potential bidders are made aware that it's wrongly designated there's no need to pull these lots.
<< <i>
<< <i>Wow, good catch Broadstruck! Has Heritage pulled the lot? Has the eBay seller pulled the lot? Have you been able to alert NGC about the problem? >>
I just contacted HA this morning and as before I feel they will just add a note to the description that it's wrongly designated and really a R-1 HT-20.
As long as potential bidders are made aware that it's wrongly designated there's no need to pull these lots. >>
I guess that's true but what stinks is someone might buy them then take them to a show and sell them to someone a bit less educated on the material. I wish the lots could be pulled and the coins sent back to NGC.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>Curious - would a novice collector have any recourse either through NGC or the auction company. I would think NGC would have some type of responsibility since they were paid to attribute the token. >>
I'm not sure if NGC would offer anything as far as financial reimbursement for wrong designation
As I currently have 19 wrongly designated NGC HTT's all purchased correctly for what they really are...
I have spoken with NGC and know they will correct the error and re-encapsulate the token with the proper designation for free.
I'm also not sure about how the auction companies would handle it but if caught early I'm sure most all would allow return and refund
The worst part is now there's more errors within the pop reports as NGC offers pops on HTT's and SCD's.
As I've mentioned for years these reports should be taken with a grain of salt... Yet now a pretty rare issue has been wrongly populated.
Edited to add - unlike grading attributing a coin is not a grey area - it either is or is not.
<< <i>I guess that's true but what stinks is someone might buy them then take them to a show and sell them to someone a bit less educated on the material. I wish the lots could be pulled and the coins sent back to NGC.
I have seen seller pull lots them after being made aware and then re-list them once corrected by NGC and in a perfect world that would be the route to take.
<< <i>If there are that many errors in NGC top pops for this series. Perhaps they have no business attributing them in the first place if not done accurately. I would be fired and/or sued at my job. I would be pissed if I owned a correctly attributed one but the pops show 5. 3-4 of which are wrong attributed.
Edited to add - unlike grading attributing a coin is not a grey area - it either is or is not. >>
I used to feel that it could be due to submitter error on the submission form, but then the actual variety should still be checked. It isn't uncommon to see a couple wrongly designated NGC HTT's being offered on the web weekly and five or so at a major show on the brouse floor. There's also some that have been graded that do not show up in the pops at all. However NGC isn't the only one as ANACS and ICG wrongly designate quite often but as fewer tokens are submitted to these services it's not seen as frequently. As with any series "self education" is the key prior to making any sort of purchase and if all slabbed examples are treated as raw by "buying the coin not the holder" you'll be just fine.
It was already at $160 with almost 6 days to go which could have gotten ugly for a pair of dueling unaware bidders.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
<< <i>The accuracy of medal and token attributions at NGC have taken a serious pitfall since they lost Brian Silliman. >>
Here's now the 4TH wrongly designated R-5 HT-19 which is really a R-1 HT-20 coming up at Heritage in May... HA has again been sent a message.
<< <i>It amazes me that there would still be collectors who would buy the holder and not the coin. The fact the collector is not doing their own attributions regarding what they collect and is relying solely on the tpg's attribution for this is simply amazing especially with the higher rarities and resulting high expenditure. >>
Whoa now, hold it - you are asking people to think? Critically?
Eric
There's absolutely no trace evidence that this over graded VF35 was struck over a HT-72/Low-53.
Here's a HT-72/Low-53 =
The peripheral weak strike along with the 1838 date is normal on the HT-63/Low-55 Mint Drop variety.
He's looking to profit from their error and had it listed for $800 last night and now reduced it to $650.
As far as the AU grade here is a NGC AU55 HT-63 / Low-55 example =
i probably missed it but whom is the seller please?
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<< <i>.
i probably missed it but whom is the seller please?
. >>
LINK
<< <i>
<< <i>.
i probably missed it but whom is the seller please?
. >>
LINK >>
if you think you are 100% correct; have you contacted ebay and provided the information that leads you to this decision and/or possibly NGC?
it is rare i provide ebay with links and images when reporting but i have when the complexity and/or value begins to be troubling
i won't report it since my comfort level is NOT at a point I would like it to be in order to report an item, YET, but I will look it over unless somone gets something done before I get comfortable
i never do it for spite or negativity
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<< <i>if you think you are 100% correct; have you contacted ebay and provided the information that leads you to this decision and/or possibly NGC?
it is rare i provide ebay with links and images when reporting but i have when the complexity and/or value begins to be troubling
i won't report it since my comfort level is NOT at a point I would like it to be in order to report an item, YET, but I will look it over unless somone gets something done before I get comfortable
i never do it for spite or negativity. >>
The listing couldn't be reported as it was a TPG attribution error...
However kudos to the seller for ending it on his own this morning!
<< <i>However kudos to the seller for ending it on his own this morning!
thanks for the update
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Unlike the other 4 wrong examples which had all been HT-20 / Low-62 R-1 varieties this is really a HT-18 / Low-60 R-1.
I've again contacted the seller with full details and hopefully it's killed prior to someone just going by the TPG label info and paying $500 for a $125+ token.
<< <i>Update: Auction listing has been removed!
Some of these potential bidders don't even realize how lucky they are that you are scanning these sales.
You can find some nice coins in NGC holders, but you can also find poorly graded and incorrectly attributed pieces as well. These are the reasons why when I submit a coin, it goes to PCGS. For all the folks who like to throw around the KoolAide comments, here is a post for you!
<< <i>Some of these potential bidders don't even realize how lucky they are that you are scanning these sales.
You can find some nice coins in NGC holders, but you can also find poorly graded and incorrectly attributed pieces as well. These are the reasons why when I submit a coin, it goes to PCGS. For all the folks who like to throw around the KoolAide comments, here is a post for you!
Thanks USMoneylover
Had this been a true HT-19 / Low-62 I would have hit the buy it now button asap as for a real one the asking price was very reasonable.
As far as the grade on this token for NGC it's actually conservative as it could have easily been in one of their MS62 or even MS63 holders.
Hopefully PCGS will consider grading Hard Times Tokens soon, although So Called Dollars is a good start.
<< <i>Has NGC replied to these concerns?..I assume you post this ATS also. >>
Yes it's been posted ATS on their forum but no one from NGC hasn't commented.
To date on just the 6 listed below 2 have been sent back for correction and have resold properly attributed.
Yesterdays 3rd is being sent back to NGC for the same.
Heritage made changes to their 2 auction descriptions alarming potential bidders of the error.
So all in all only 1 has slipped through the cracks.
<< <i>
<< <i>Has NGC replied to these concerns?..I assume you post this ATS also. >>
Yes it's been posted ATS on their forum but no one from NGC hasn't commented.
To date on just the 6 listed below 2 have been sent back for correction and have resold properly attributed.
Yesterdays 3rd is being sent back to NGC for the same.
Heritage made changes to their 2 auction descriptions alarming potential bidders of the error.
So all in all only 1 has slipped through the cracks. >>
well done for your part!!
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This is actually a HT-32/Low-18 not a HT-31/Low-17...
A 32/18 is a R.2 rarity whereas a true 31/17 is R.5 and excessively scarce above VF35.
<< <i>Here's another seller contacted a few days ago... >>
seems to me it is tough to mess up attributing these, but then again i've never done 500 in a day, so i'll keep the easy comment in reserve
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<< <i>
<< <i>Here's another seller contacted a few days ago... >>
seems to me it is tough to mess up attributing these, but then again i've never done 500 in a day, so i'll keep the easy comment in reserve
. >>
I'm just trying to catch the ones with major rarity rating errors that could cost someone dearly.
<< <i>The old Heritage HT-20 / L-62 example is now on Ebay and the seller has been notified that it's wrongly attributed.