Wax/Cello Pack Grading Question
mgugs46
Posts: 217 ✭✭
I was hoping someone could help me with a few questions. I am brand new to this type of collecting - ie, buying sealed boxes/wax/cello packs etc and was curious as to how the packs are graded? I am 36, and been collecting fairly regularly since I was 6 or so, but have never done anything with sealed stuff [mainly done prospecting] - and never thought I would be interested in it until I was referred to this site a few days ago. Since then I have already ordered a few 75 mini packs from BBCE, as well as some 81/82/83 baseball cello rack packs and have jumped in on the break currently going on here now for some 77 baseball packs and a 82 topps box, and an 83 fleer cello box ... so basically I am already addicted 
I am familiar with BGS and PSA grading for prospect or vintage cards, but have no clue with the vintage and early 80's packs. Is it based on the top card showing? Is it based on how tightly packed the pack still is? Any tips on what to look for in terms of deciding on whether or not to send a pack in for grading? Obviously I assume unless its a very old pack, unless a star is showing on front or back, there is no point in grading?
Also, I realize that of course BBCE is perfectly safe and great to buy from, but when buying off eBay, is there anything in particular to look for in terms of spotting fakes? I have read to be leery of GAI graded packs, but is that for ALL GAI as I have seen many people showcasing some one here ... and how about when buying raw?
Sorry for lots of questions, but when getting into something new, nothing quells your excitement faster than getting ripped off
Mike
I am familiar with BGS and PSA grading for prospect or vintage cards, but have no clue with the vintage and early 80's packs. Is it based on the top card showing? Is it based on how tightly packed the pack still is? Any tips on what to look for in terms of deciding on whether or not to send a pack in for grading? Obviously I assume unless its a very old pack, unless a star is showing on front or back, there is no point in grading?
Also, I realize that of course BBCE is perfectly safe and great to buy from, but when buying off eBay, is there anything in particular to look for in terms of spotting fakes? I have read to be leery of GAI graded packs, but is that for ALL GAI as I have seen many people showcasing some one here ... and how about when buying raw?
Sorry for lots of questions, but when getting into something new, nothing quells your excitement faster than getting ripped off
Mike
Looking for PSA HOF autos, PSA Vintage Red Sox and Pedro Martinez
0
Comments
After replying to you on my thread, I saw your post. As far as grading, PSA really looks at the condition of the pack or cello first. Does it have any splits or tears? Are cards poking through the corners? How are the folds in the back of the pack? Is the writing worn or rubbed off somewhat on the packs particularily the cellos. If the pack is clean and tight with a good seal, then you'll get at least an 8. Now for a 9 or especially a 10 with respect to cellos, they will look at the cards showing and see if they are nicely centered and have nice eye appeal. I usually grade only star packs from 1983 and older or any packs prior to 1975.
Buying raw on eBay is tough as there are a lot of great resealers out there. I stick mainly to cellos and especially rack packs, but these can be resealed as well. For cellos, I study the pack of the pack and how the seams and seal looks. For rack packs, I look at the placement of the cards in the 3 visible sections. In my experience, I have not bought a GAI pack that didn't cross over to PSA. At least 90% of the GAI packs out there are good, but the ones with the most issues start with the serial number "102". They slabbed a bunch of grocery cello packs from the 70's that were not issued by Topps and, therefore, as far as I'm concerned should not have been graded. Also, they had an issue graded a bunch of 1977 wax packs which turned out to be produced by a big time resealer that slipped through.
Lots of unopened pack collectors on the board. Still overwhelmingly outnumbered though and then we have some unopened collectors with split personalities. You know who you are.
Shoot me a PM if you need any additional info and good luck with the grading!!!
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>
I am familiar with BGS and PSA grading for prospect or vintage cards, but have no clue with the vintage and early 80's packs. Is it based on the top card showing? Is it based on how tightly packed the pack still is? Any tips on what to look for in terms of deciding on whether or not to send a pack in for grading? Obviously I assume unless its a very old pack, unless a star is showing on front or back, there is no point in grading?
>>
Hi Mike and welcome.
I'll throw in my two cents.
For stars showing on top or bottom, I think it adds value to the pack, and will be labeled as so -- even for wax that you can see thru.
For no stars showing, I think it depends on the year. Some years sell at a premium because of rookie cards, some don't.
The pack holders are pretty neat, and when I show them to my friends, I'm not worried one pack might accidentally open.
There was a group submission that Mike ran last year that got us all a bit of a discount. I sent in about 10 packs, from 75 - 85 (McGwire showing on cello). 8 were great (8's, 9's and a 10), 1 was a dog ( a '77 cello that got a 5) and 1 can back 'cause the seal had popped (which sucked).
PSA does not slab rack packs
<< <i>Hello Again Mike,
After replying to you on my thread, I saw your post. As far as grading, PSA really looks at the condition of the pack or cello first. Does it have any splits or tears? Are cards poking through the corners? How are the folds in the back of the pack? Is the writing worn or rubbed off somewhat on the packs particularily the cellos. If the pack is clean and tight with a good seal, then you'll get at least an 8. Now for a 9 or especially a 10 with respect to cellos, they will look at the cards showing and see if they are nicely centered and have nice eye appeal. I usually grade only star packs from 1983 and older or any packs prior to 1975.
Buying raw on eBay is tough as there are a lot of great resealers out there. I stick mainly to cellos and especially rack packs, but these can be resealed as well. For cellos, I study the pack of the pack and how the seams and seal looks. For rack packs, I look at the placement of the cards in the 3 visible sections. In my experience, I have not bought a GAI pack that didn't cross over to PSA. At least 90% of the GAI packs out there are good, but the ones with the most issues start with the serial number "102". They slabbed a bunch of grocery cello packs from the 70's that were not issued by Topps and, therefore, as far as I'm concerned should not have been graded. Also, they had an issue graded a bunch of 1977 wax packs which turned out to be produced by a big time resealer that slipped through.
Lots of unopened pack collectors on the board. Still overwhelmingly outnumbered though and then we have some unopened collectors with split personalities. You know who you are.
Shoot me a PM if you need any additional info and good luck with the grading!!! >>
Thanks for the info! I guess its easier to tell if a cello or rack has been tampered with? Is there any way to tell if a wax pack has been tampered with?
This is probably a stupid question, but are ANY of the XMAS racks legit? I understand they were packed by a third party, but I have seen some from 56, 57, 58, 59 etc and the cards seem to be legit ... I understand there are probably no high end cards inside like Mantle, etc, but for example I have seen some in the past with a decent player on front.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I am familiar with BGS and PSA grading for prospect or vintage cards, but have no clue with the vintage and early 80's packs. Is it based on the top card showing? Is it based on how tightly packed the pack still is? Any tips on what to look for in terms of deciding on whether or not to send a pack in for grading? Obviously I assume unless its a very old pack, unless a star is showing on front or back, there is no point in grading?
>>
Hi Mike and welcome.
I'll throw in my two cents.
For stars showing on top or bottom, I think it adds value to the pack, and will be labeled as so -- even for wax that you can see thru.
For no stars showing, I think it depends on the year. Some years sell at a premium because of rookie cards, some don't.
The pack holders are pretty neat, and when I show them to my friends, I'm not worried one pack might accidentally open.
There was a group submission that Mike ran last year that got us all a bit of a discount. I sent in about 10 packs, from 75 - 85 (McGwire showing on cello). 8 were great (8's, 9's and a 10), 1 was a dog ( a '77 cello that got a 5) and 1 can back 'cause the seal had popped (which sucked).
PSA does not slab rack packs >>
Thanks you. So, who does grade rack packs if you get one with a star on top - GAI only? When you say 'even wax you cant see through' I am assuming you can actually see the card though up close correct? I really like the idea of buying and then grading some packs. I also have been tinkering with the idea of buying some empty boxes of old wax for display - I just think it would look nice, especially some of the boxes I ripped though as a child which I can still buy full for fairly cheap
<< <i>Thanks for the info! I guess its easier to tell if a cello or rack has been tampered with? Is there any way to tell if a wax pack has been tampered with?
This is probably a stupid question, but are ANY of the XMAS racks legit? I understand they were packed by a third party, but I have seen some from 56, 57, 58, 59 etc and the cards seem to be legit ... I understand there are probably no high end cards inside like Mantle, etc, but for example I have seen some in the past with a decent player on front. >>
For me, it is easier to tell if a cello or rack pack has been tampered with, but there are guys who are probably better at studying wax packs. For wax, you need to look at the back seal and see if the roller lines match up along the folds. Also, Topps used different size gum for different years so sometimes you can tell if the resealer used the wrong size gum for the packs. If they are really bad, you can see the burn marks too.
I really doubt any of the Christmas rack packs are legit. I would only bid on them based on the condition of the cards showing and would assume the cards in between are even worse than the ones showing.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>Thanks you. So, who does grade rack packs if you get one with a star on top - GAI only? When you say 'even wax you cant see through' I am assuming you can actually see the card though up close correct? I really like the idea of buying and then grading some packs. I also have been tinkering with the idea of buying some empty boxes of old wax for display - I just think it would look nice, especially some of the boxes I ripped though as a child which I can still buy full for fairly cheap
Yes, GAI is the only company that grades rack packs. Some wax packs you can make out the players showing, but some are tough to do it with.
There are a lot of guys that collect the empty boxes and they do make a nice display piece.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
For those who both rip and collect sealed packs/boxes what is the deciding factor on whether to bust or not?
<< <i>For those who both rip and collect sealed packs/boxes what is the deciding factor on whether to bust or not? >>
I don't rip anything, but Grote15 is an expert in this area.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>For those who both rip and collect sealed packs/boxes what is the deciding factor on whether to bust or not? >>
The number of beers you have consumed that evening!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>
<< <i>For those who both rip and collect sealed packs/boxes what is the deciding factor on whether to bust or not? >>
The number of beers you have consumed that evening! >>
Haha - now that's funny! Do you guys even keep packs sealed without stars on front/back? I'm talking for newer stuff - like early 80s and late 70s
Also, I sent you a PM about '56 Topps.
Welcome!
To be honest, no direction, but...
1966-69 Topps EX+
1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
And that whole process bothers me, here's why.
I live in NY.
I send my packs to CA.
The packs are then sent to IL -- for Steve Hart to examine.
<< For the newbies, Steve does work part-time for PSA and just authenticates packs (ie, resealed or not) >>
Then they are shipped pack to CA to be graded.
That's an awful lot of traveling for a pack.
Several years ago, I subbed packs (75s and 76s) that I have owned my entire life and never left a closet shelf. Steve deemed several of them resealed and they were returned to me opened.
A sad day.
Edited: Also for the newbies, check out this thread, some AMAZING unopened material of fellow board members. It's a lot to read, so start at the back.
<< <i>If the seal breaks, you are SOL.
And that whole process bothers me, here's why.
I live in NY.
I send my packs to CA.
The packs are then sent to IL -- for Steve Hart to examine.
<< For the newbies, Steve does work part-time for PSA and just authenticates packs (ie, resealed or not) >>
Then they are shipped pack to CA to be graded.
That's an awful lot of traveling for a pack.
Several years ago, I subbed packs (75s and 76s) that I have owned my entire life and never left a closet shelf. Steve deemed several of them resealed and they were returned to me opened.
A sad day.
Edited: Also for the newbies, check out this thread, some AMAZING unopened material of fellow board members. It's a lot to read, so start at the back. >>
So was the problem that the packs opened in transition - or he just thought they were reseated and then somewhere on their way back to you they opened?
<< <i> So was the problem that the packs opened in transition - or he just thought they were reseated and then somewhere on their way back to you they opened? >>
I remember, I called PSA with my concerns and but I don't remember if their response was (a) they arrived to IL opened or (b) Steve simply rejected them and how/why they were returned opened/seal popped is a mystery or (c) no one knows. It was at least 4 years ago.
I just felt burned because I had bought these packs in the 70s. They were in my closet for 30+ years. And they were sealed when they left NY.
On a separate note, even Steve gets fooled. Last year there was a 1980 baseball wax rip -- and a fellow board member ripped his and lo and behold, had a marked checklist! Things that make you go hmmmmm
Steve did the right thing and returned money or sent you another pack, but it just shows that the person trusted/entrusted the most by PSA was fooled.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
On a side note, how old does a pack need to be to be worthwhile to submit with no visible star? Pre 1970?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Anything from the 70s is worth submitting as the pack registry has driven prices up. >>
Even something like 75 minis?
<< <i>For those who both rip and collect sealed packs/boxes what is the deciding factor on whether to bust or not? >>
I collect sets, and to me an unopened pack and empty box are just extensions of the set. Same with uncut sheets and salesman samples, if they were issued that particular year.
I collect the set, than look for the pack/box/sheet.
At some point a pack run or box run becomes something of a set in and of itself. It's certainly a lot harder to put together a pack run than a set run.
Once you get past a certain point (I"m guessing anything older/more valuable than '88 Donruss) opening a pack is almost always a losing proposition.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Even something like 75 minis?
Definitely, if the pack is in at least NM condition. A PSA 9 75 mini wax pack can go for $100+ easy on ebay, 3x what it would be worth raw.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
I"m guessing anything older/more valuable than '88 Donruss) opening a pack is almost always a losing proposition. >>
Even with a nice centered looking rookie on top, like an 83T Boggs, 82T Ripken, etc?
gum stain
dinged corner
paper loss from being stuck to the card behind
etc etc.
I'd open packs for entertainment, but know that it will generally be a losing proposition. If you want a nice graded card, buy one and remove the risk- it will probably cost you much less.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>wax stain
gum stain
dinged corner
paper loss from being stuck to the card behind
etc etc.
I'd open packs for entertainment, but know that it will generally be a losing proposition. If you want a nice graded card, buy one and remove the risk- it will probably cost you much less. >>
As someone who bust quite a few cases of modern product, trust me, I realize that ripping is generally ALWAYS a losing proposition. I guess what I am trying to figure out before I make a mistake is, at what point does the pack become more valuable to hold sealed as opposed to opening and grading a really nice looking rookie card or HOF [or both] player? For example, and I realize this is low end stuff - I ordered one of the 83 Fleer cello boxes. Say there is a nice looking Boggs/Gwynn/etc on top of a pack, and the pack looks good ... is it better to open, and grade the Boggs looking for a PSA10, or better to grade the entire pack? Or I guess a third option is neither are worth it with early 80's.
Edit to add: That said, I would not recommend opening a pack with a major star showing as the value of that pack is almost certainly going to be greater than the sum of its parts.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>For example, and I realize this is low end stuff - I ordered one of the 83 Fleer cello boxes. Say there is a nice looking Boggs/Gwynn/etc on top of a pack, and the pack looks good ... is it better to open, and grade the Boggs looking for a PSA10, or better to grade the entire pack? Or I guess a third option is neither are worth it with early 80's. >>
It's up to the owner of the pack, but I would grade a cello with a RC on top.