I went to sell some coins back to a dealer,

madax425

that I had purchased over the years. Now I will start by saying that I have not bought any coins from this dealer in a while because I felt that they pushed the grading, and charged FULL retail. I should have sent theese coins back during the return period, but I did not. I sent them to the dealer there is a total of 4 coins, barber dimes, I bought them at EF-40, they offered me VF-20 money, when I said " Well I bought the coins from your company as EF, there was silence on the phone , and the some stammering and something about someone no longer being with the company, I still have the original flip inserts, and the reason I removed them from the original holders was that they were soft plastic holders. Anyway I am glad that I scratched this dealer off my list years ago. I did feel that the grading was very liberal, but I let the return period go by like a dummy. But it ponts to clear case of overgrading, and not having good records, or they would have looked me up and realized that they sold them to me.

BryceM

Yup. It happens.

PerryHall

<< <i>that I had purchased over the years. Now I will start by saying that I have not bought any coins from this dealer in a while because I felt that they pushed the grading, and charged FULL retail. I should have sent theese coins back during the return period, but I did not. I sent them to the dealer there is a total of 4 coins, barber dimes, I bought them at EF-40, they offered me VF-20 money, when I said " Well I bought the coins from your company as EF, there was silence on the phone , and the some stammering and something about someone no longer being with the company, I still have the original flip inserts, and the reason I removed them from the original holders was that they were soft plastic holders. Anyway I am glad that I scratched this dealer off my list years ago. I did feel that the grading was very liberal, but I let the return period go by like a dummy. But it ponts to clear case of overgrading, and not having good records, or they would have looked me up and realized that they sold them to me. >>



Who was this dealer? Maybe others have had similar experiences with this dealer.

PerryHall

I'm waiting for a certain forum member to post here that you are guilty of "dealer bashing".

mozeppa

you're so gonna get it!

madax425

I will tell anyone who wants to know who the dealer is, by pm. If I do not get back to anyone until later this evening,it is because I have to go out at about 8:15 tonight, and wont be back til abought 11:00.

TexasNationals

Your PM function isn't on?

Bigrig52

Thats a dealer for you..They rip most people off anyways through my point of view..Buying and selling

madax425

<< <i>Your PM function isn't on? >>

leave me directions how to, and when I get home I will turn it on, I am not the most tech savvy person.

JamesMurray

<< <i>Thats a dealer for you..They rip most people off anyways through my point of view..Buying and selling >>



If i go to a used car lot am i likely to buy one for less or the same as the dealer bought it in for ? Im not defending dealers but its the same for anything , im pretty sure they call it "business".

Baley

I went to sell some coins back to a dealer,

that's were I stopped reading.

very rarely do stories that start that way end well.

MikeInFL

It is always a good test to try and sell back the coins you purchased from a dealer. Some dealers pass, some dealers fail, and it is up to each of us, as collectors, to figure out which is which. Cheers, Mike-o

TwoSides2aCoin

I ask people to sell me coins back. One guy bought a few hundred dollars worth of silver dimes from me at $.90 each in 2009 when silver was at $11. Then he took my advice and bought a digital microscope to search them.
Last year he sold the "junk" back after cherrypicking the lot, and I paid him $2.80 each. If you would like his name, please PM me. (no IRS agents, please)

madax425

<< <i>

<< <i>Thats a dealer for you..They rip most people off anyways through my point of view..Buying and selling >>



If i go to a used car lot am i likely to buy one for less or the same as the dealer bought it in for ? Im not defending dealers but its the same for anything , im pretty sure they call it "business". >>

Clearly, a dealer needs to sell for more money than purchased. But if you sell a coin as EF, you should buy the same coin as EF. Of course it is business, But the way you conduct your business, will either be ethical or not ethical there is a difference.( I dodged the service bullet, and do not have to go out now anyway.)

magikbilly

Baley is right, but I am a glutton for punishment. Years? Return period? What do YOU grade them? You felt they over-graded and overcharged, enough to stay away for some time - yet you went back? What kind of treatment were you expecting? Did you have a $ in mind when you went in? What have your experiences been with this kind of scenario and other dealers? It could be worse. I know of a guy from China who spent $XXXXX on a certain item online from one of the most established dealers in a field I am in. Upon learning the item was a forgery, without doubt, the item was returned to the source, who claimed he never met the man or sold the item! Still in business with a good name. Yes, this is a reverse Chinese counterfeit story.

Eric

EVillageProwler

A dealer's buy-back policy is a critical indicator of the dealer or that specific product. I will never buy stuff that doesn't have a reasonable buy-back policy, and of course I will never deal with someone who generally has no decent buy-back policy.

EVP

madax425

<< <i>I ask people to sell me coins back. One guy bought a few hundred dollars worth of silver dimes from me at $.90 each in 2009 when silver was at $11. Then he took my advice and bought a digital microscope to search them.
Last year he sold the "junk" back after cherrypicking the lot, and I paid him $2.80 each. If you would like his name, please PM me. (no IRS agents, please) Am I missing something here? I dont get it.

>>

magikbilly

I take it these were raw

Eric

AnkurJ

I've tried it and have received very low ball offers of almost a third of what i paid. If the market for the item hasn't changed much, I personally would give at least 10% back. If the item was one I'd like back for resale or myself I'd pay more.

LindeDad

Why did you think the dealer knew how to grade?

There are people that actually make their living professionally grading coins.

DAM

I learned a long time ago, when buying raw coins, it's not the grade I pay the money for, it's the coin. In other words, if I think it grades X and the dealer lists it as Y, as long as the price is what I'm willing to pay I'm good with it. The same with slabbed coins as far as that goes.

Also, dealers aren't in business to make you whole, even after "years". They're in business to make money.

Sounds like you knew you over paid, I felt that they pushed the grading, and charged FULL retail. I should have sent theese coins back during the return period, but I did not., so I don't think it's fair you're making the dealer the bad guy years later.

IMHO

TwoSides2aCoin

Of course you're missing something here.... A good dealer

*
edited after an enlightening experience in PMs

magikbilly

When I sold my Pr Seated/Barber/Mercury/Roosevelt 10C collection I spent a good bit of time to check current values and all so I knew what I wanted for my collection and all that went into it - I walked in to my old B&M and my old time first dealer, not the source, calculated to nearest $100 what I wanted in just a few minutes. I should have went to bed early and trusted my eye! I did not have to say anything to sell. We were all happy

Eric

madax425

<< <i>Why did you think the dealer knew how to grade?

There are people that actually make their living professionally grading coins. This was before circs were being graded much, I just thought the letters and numbers before the coin description, correlated with the published guidelines that the company stated they were using. You have a reasonable expectation of what a coin will look like, if someone says to you " The coin is EF-40 and I use photograde or ANA as my guide. Clearly there is a different expectation between VF-20 and EF-40.

>>

Bochiman

<< <i>I ask people to sell me coins back. One guy bought a few hundred dollars worth of silver dimes from me at $.90 each in 2009 when silver was at $11. Then he took my advice and bought a digital microscope to search them.
Last year he sold the "junk" back after cherrypicking the lot, and I paid him $2.80 each. If you would like his name, please PM me. (no IRS agents, please)

>>




And, that had WHAT to do with what the OP is talking about or could help him in what way?

Bochiman

Once the OP has his PM turned on, I, too, would like to know which dealer as it sounds like an internet presence (may have a shop and do shows as well, but definitely sounds like an internet dealer).
Also sounds like they were raw.....I am hoping it isn't one of the big advertisers of raw coins in CW/NN

RYK

I have found that my cadre of six or so boutique dealers is outstanding regarding buying back coins that they sold me. I have also found that this is far from the industry standard.

As someone who likes to churn my collection for personal enjoyment, it is critical for me to have an exit strategy in place.

TwoSides2aCoin

<< <i>

<< <i>I ask people to sell me coins back. One guy bought a few hundred dollars worth of silver dimes from me at $.90 each in 2009 when silver was at $11. Then he took my advice and bought a digital microscope to search them.
Last year he sold the "junk" back after cherrypicking the lot, and I paid him $2.80 each. If you would like his name, please PM me. (no IRS agents, please)

>>




And, that had WHAT to do with what the OP is talking about or could help him in what way? >>


Well, he could find a better dealer than the one he had. Maybe one who would not screw him over and overgrade coins. Then again, I don't expect you to understand everything I put down here. Keep working at it. Eventually you'll understand.

stman

<< <i>Of course you're missing something here.... A good dealer
Just PM me and I will sell you properly graded coins that I will buy back ANY TIME. >>



Yeah, even the dealer in the op was willing to buy them back....... at a price. You didn't say how much you would buy them back anytime.
Also, it's amazing how some get a free pass to spam the board.

TwoSides2aCoin

LOL @ free pass to spam.

Like who's spamming what ?

madax425

<< <i>I learned a long time ago, when buying raw coins, it's not the grade I pay the money for, it's the coin. In other words, if I think it grades X and the dealer lists it as Y, as long as the price is what I'm willing to pay I'm good with it. The same with slabbed coins as far as that goes.

Also, dealers aren't in business to make you whole, even after "years". They're in business to make money.

Sounds like you knew you over paid, I felt that they pushed the grading, and charged FULL retail. I should have sent theese coins back during the return period, but I did not., so I don't think it's fair you're making the dealer the bad guy years later. I did not make the dealer out as a bad guy, I simply put forth a transaction as it happened. I did not state the dealers name, price paid, offered. since you have no idea of either, you should not assume weather or not I was made whole, for all you know I made money on the transaction.

IMHO >>

TwoSides2aCoin

I hope your next experience with a dealer is better.

Pokermandude

Ah the good old sell a coin as grade X, buy it back as if it's X-1 or X-2...

Attempting to sell a slabbed coin to a different dealer than you bought it front isn't always much different... Excerpt from my most recent attempt to sell some decent quality first world TPG graded coins to a dealer who is familiar with those series of coins:

"oh such-and-such grading company over grades this series!" Yet later on when we get talking about resubmitting coins and such, he complains that his coins came back (from the same TPG, virtually the same series of coins) 1-2 points UNDER what they "should have" or what "TPG #2 had previously graded them". My coins came home with me. One of the two of them I am sure this dealer would have touted as "PQ" for the grade too.

RedTiger

Maybe it is dealer bashing, but it is also about an average experience for folks buying raw coins. Sounds like it was mail order too, which would increase the chances for bad experiences and overpaying because the collectors are paying for the ads. Ownership does indeed tend to add a full grade, so remove the flips and many dealers are going to downgrade when coins are offered to them. Once the dealer owns the coin they might add a grade, which explains the two grade differential.

At least it sounds like the lesson was learned early on. Many collectors go 30 years in the hobby without learning these kinds of lessons, or live in a bubble where they THINK they know what their dealer will offer, but really don't. The real world can be harsh. Some dealers routinely push the profit/ethics envelope and one way to do that is to overgrade the raw coins they sell, and undergrade the coins they buy. Many collectors would do similar.

coindeuce

<< <i>I hope your next experience with a dealer is better. >>



I seriously doubt that will happen. Since the OP made no attempt to specify which dates of Barber dimes he expected XF money for and got a VF offer on, I think it is fair to assume here that they are drecky widgets which the dealer whom he presented them to was hedging on strictly on a supply/demand basis. Just because the dealer offered VF money doesn't mean that the dealer only considered them actual VF's. If no one is buying drecky widget XF's, they might just as well be VF's. Not a difficult concept to understand. When you buy any commodity, unless it is widely perceived as a rarity, there is plenty of room for depreciation. If you buy a new house and never live in it, or buy a new car and never drive it, there is a rather high probability that either will depreciate over time, whether by internal or external market forces.

magikbilly

"I hope your next experience with a dealer is better." - TwoSides2aCoin

I hope so too for his sake, but I'd put more in than hope (I'm sure you would too) if I wasn't getting back what I wanted. Education, grading books, clarity re policies, websites, questions, shows, books, auction/price guides, looking and looking (and not necessarily buying at first). And then looking.

Eric

stealer

<< <i>
If i go to a used car lot am i likely to buy one for less or the same as the dealer bought it in for ? Im not defending dealers but its the same for anything , im pretty sure they call it "business". >>


This.

jdimmick

There is anothing wrong with a dealer buying coins back at a percentage back to make a profit if the market was about the same as the time sold. However, for him to automatically down grade the coins he sold as XF's to VF upon a repurchase offer, that is shady to say the least.

Bochiman

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I ask people to sell me coins back. One guy bought a few hundred dollars worth of silver dimes from me at $.90 each in 2009 when silver was at $11. Then he took my advice and bought a digital microscope to search them.
Last year he sold the "junk" back after cherrypicking the lot, and I paid him $2.80 each. If you would like his name, please PM me. (no IRS agents, please)

>>




And, that had WHAT to do with what the OP is talking about or could help him in what way? >>


Well, he could find a better dealer than the one he had. Maybe one who would not screw him over and overgrade coins. Then again, I don't expect you to understand everything I put down here. Keep working at it. Eventually you'll understand. >>



That's like the Joker telling Batman that someday he will "eventually understand". I don't think Batman or I ever will

Bochiman

<< <i>There is anothing wrong with a dealer buying coins back at a percentage back to make a profit if the market was about the same as the time sold. However, for him to automatically down grade the coins he sold as XF's to VF upon a repurchase offer, that is shady to say the least. >>



Agree with you on both accounts. I sold back a nice early half cent to a dealer, because I was upgrading. Dealer offered x% back of what I had paid. I hadn't had it more than a year and the market hadn't gone gangbusters, so I was ok with that. I understand a dealer and their business (most of the time ). But, it was an up and up conversation and none of this "it's really only a XX grade". That doesn't fly with me.

Sometimes, with local dealers, I will do that test. I will buy something, that I like a bit, and at their fair price. I will later ask them what they will pay for it. The dealers that are upfront and honest about how they come to their price, I appreciate. The ones that talk the coin down, really lowball (when equal material is in their cases at the much higher price), I learn to not bother offering to sell to in the future and only buy from them if they have something unique or that I may get a rip on (very little opportunity on that as they really are the ones doing the ripping....generally to new folks (like I was when I bought some from them) or older folks ).

TwoSides2aCoin

I thought it was plain English until someone pointed out that I was spamming. That wasn't my intent. My post was meant to show a contrast. And contrasting it is.

madax425

Coindeuce, The company graded and offered VF money. The coins are as follows- 1898-O, 1915-S, 1906-P and a 1899-S. If I had a decent way to photograph the coins I would, when I get them back and post them. They are in my opinion VF-30-35. Maybe the 98-O could cut it as EF, but strictly graded in my opinion, just not quite EF. I also dont think there is a such thing as a widget, you need one of each date/mm to complete a set. It is as important to me that the coins in my budget range are nice for the grade,and look nice as it to the well heeled buyer.

magikbilly

I am reading wrong. You just said you also grade some of them VF? I need glasses.

Eric

madax425

<< <i>I am reading wrong. You just said you also grade some of them VF? I need glasses. I said in the original post I thought they were a overgraded when I bought them, you would not call them VF-20, 30 at the least IMO, I just did not return them and I should have but the 98-O I can see as an EF.

Eric >>

Sonorandesertrat

<< <i>There is anothing wrong with a dealer buying coins back at a percentage back to make a profit if the market was about the same as the time sold. However, for him to automatically down grade the coins he sold as XF's to VF upon a repurchase offer, that is shady to say the least. >>

SeattleSlammer

Lowball offers.....then ask retail+. Such is the way of most dealers. Just the way it is and the way it will always be.

ebaybuyer

i dont believe "most" dealers are out to rip anyone off, "some" maybe but not most. just as MOST people have a distorted sense of reality. a dealer cant pay top dollar and still sell at reasonable prices.

TwoSides2aCoin

I remember the first time I sold my collection of coins to a dealer. I left the hobby for 27 years.

magikbilly

I sell my REAL goods to other collectors - they have different goals (and overhead!) that align with mine a little more

Eric

PerryHall

<< <i>There is anothing wrong with a dealer buying coins back at a percentage back to make a profit if the market was about the same as the time sold. However, for him to automatically down grade the coins he sold as XF's to VF upon a repurchase offer, that is shady to say the least. >>



This is one of the biggest reasons that the major grading services became so popular. It was standard practice for many dealers to undergrade raw coins when buying and then to overgrade them when selling. This scam is a little difficult to pull off when the coins have been graded by a reputable grading service.

nwcoast

I agree that for a dealer to automatically downgrade something they sold previously at a higher grade is downright sleezy. Yet, I also accept that these folks are in a business to pay their bills and make a profit if possible. I think it goes without saying that if they paid full retail for a coin and then to give a fair price to the buyer... They would have a pretty slim profit margin. It's HOW they work this spread and communicate that to the customer that makes the difference.

I went through a period of liquidating a portion of a collection which I had aquired through inheritance. I sold some through B&M shops (8 different shops), and through shows by making the rounds and taking offers. Of the seven I sold through, i will only do business with three of them after my experiences.

I'm using restraint as I don't want to be accused of dealer bashing......just like any business- there are some great honest and great dealers and there are the other type.

A common thing they'd throw to me when reviewing a roll of BU Morgans or Peace dollars was..."these have been cleaned" when at most some had indeed been dipped in the early 60's, the extent of the cleaning didn't justify the discounted offers they'd make. It was common for most of the dealers to under grade the coins when they were considering an offer to purchase. The few that didn't immediately start insulting the quality of the coins and were honest in their appraisal are the few that I will sell to when I need to make some sales. I remember who really $crewed me early on before I knew better, and now that I know a bit more, i look back on some of the comments made and I fume..

The simple solution to these problems is to take a little time when selling and entertain offers from 2 or more different dealers. One doesn't always have the luxury of time and that's when you really get taken. I think some of them can sense this and know that they've got easy prey...
Opps... Sorry...not bashing here... This goes for ANY business that buys from the public.