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I was about to start collecting another type and stopped dead in my tracks....

RealoneRealone Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
upon learning how red copper is so valued, something like 10x non red valuation just because the copper is red? Isn't red equivalent to blast white silver? So an untoned copper coin, clean as a whistle, the color is left the mint is valued at approx 10x, something we normally give for extreme rarities, something we sometimes give for incredibly toned and original silver......mighty interesting. I rather have a dramatically toned copper, far more interesting and original and a heck of alot cheaper. Funny thing is I was inspecting this ms65RED copper and noticed under high mag...I know I shouldn't put it under high mag, like 9x to 23x because I coin just shouldn't be looked at so closely, and I was able to see bits of discoloration and possible corrosion, something that the tpg eveidently missed and everyone I showed it to.

What can I say, I have been in the dark, I never realized that red copper was coveted like blast white silver, that day it left the mint color that many collector's desire. And to think of a naturally toned piece of copper typically classified as REDBROWN being looked at as a lowly piece of copper and dramatically cheaper, heaven forebid that it is BROWN that it is consdiered garbage, no wonder the Ricko dislike tarnished silver!image Now I understand........our hobby is deeply flawed!image Needless to say I am not venturing into copper, staying far away from that...........especially when we all know how reactive copper is, I could just see myself in 5 years when that RED ms65 starts to change and thousands are subtracted from the value even though the holder still says REDms65.image

Comments

  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red copper and blast white silver are completely different animals. IMO, the best value is the brown copper with etchings of red around the devices, and the second best value is the RB copper with a lot of red.
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  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Red copper and blast white silver are completely different animals. IMO, the best value is the brown copper with etchings of red around the devices, and the second best value is the RB copper with a lot of red. >>



    I knew someone or many would say that...but i like to look at things from a completely different perspective. Blast white (silver) and red (copper) are the original colors liaving the mint, collectors love anything that looks like it was just minted yesterday and will pay up for it. Toned silver reminds me of toned copper (brown and redbrown). In both instances both are untarnished metals, the way they were minted 100+ years ago, tell me where I am going wrong? >>


    The red coin has faded since it left mint, but remains a mellow red. It is far, far more unusual to see an original red copper large cent than it is a blast white seated half. A well-dipped seated coin will resemble a "new" coin, while it is very hard (if not impossible) to capture the original mint red of an old large cent.

    At any rate, the market agrees with my opinion more than yours. Mint red early copper is valued more than brown. You cannot say the same about white vs. toned silver. I do think that there are some very interesting color possibilities with brown copper, but many of these have had surface manipulation, too.
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  • DAMDAM Posts: 2,410 ✭✭
    << Red copper and blast white silver are completely different animals. IMO, the best value is the brown copper with etchings of red around the devices, and the second best value is the RB copper with a lot of red. >>


    Especially when there are so many levels of Red. You could almost make an argument for 3 or so Red color levels, before you throw in RB and BN.
    Dan
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I want to pay up for rarity of numbers minted or numbers existing and nothing else.

    In other words, you do not care what the coin looks like, as long as it is rare or low mintage. Got it. image

    I pay a premium for coins that have a natural and attractive appearance. It's just what I do.

    image
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 14,021 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is an attractive 8 escudo!
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've stayed away from 'red' copper all my collectings years because I believe the coin doctoring that goes on with Copper coins is on a level that goes way beyond that for silver coins.

    It takes much more skill and is extremely esoteric in its nature.

    Count me out!!
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
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  • IrishMikeyIrishMikey Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭
    If you really want to get upset, go out and buy a dozen full Red copper coins, then watch them change
    over the next decade. Better live in the desert if you want to collect Red copper coins, as virtually any
    other environment will start attacking them.
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If you really want to get upset, go out and buy a dozen full Red copper coins, then watch them change
    over the next decade. Better live in the desert if you want to collect Red copper coins, as virtually any
    other environment will start attacking them. >>



    You bring out a good point. And makes one wonder why there has never been a hermetically sealed slab that could be guaranteed to remain at what the coin was graded at.
    image
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No RYK,
    I want as original and natural and as high grade a specimen as I can manage to find, but i don't want to pay for red, when the fact of the matter due to the problems associated with time and every change in red is a detriment ie subtraction (forgetting that PCGS has stopped guaranteeing them which screams hint hint btw) and that is the natural aging process of the metal. At least with silver, it gets better with time ie tarnish of course in 300 years when it becomes blach is another thing but myself and all my relatives won't be here 300 years from now, but copper's every change is looked upon as a detriment, however when you collect brown or redbrown the opposite is true. This red goal is problematic to say the least. With red it is like playing musical chairs, you don't want to be the last guy holding right after it turns and becomes what thte tpg's might deem as unred. >>


    I am not saying that you should collect red copper, and I do not collect red copper. I am saying that you should not condemn red copper. Original red copper large cents are truly magnificent and among the most aesthetically pleasing classic US coins one can find. Their sensitivity and transient nature makes them even more desirable--like lightning in a bottle.
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  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I just find it interesting what RYK is implying.
    Everyone here talks about coin doctoring with silver, we see how the doctors are toning coins and getting the big multiples or repairing coins via toning by hiding problem coins and allowing them to grade and thus making multiples, but when you look at the ridiculous multiples paid for red copper no one talks about the motivation for coin doctoring there. Why is it when I talk to knowledgable dealers they say it is impossilbe to touch copper and their not knowing it, I say that is hogwash since no one looks at these things close enough. everyone tells me I shouldn't put my coins under high mag, but that is one of the ways to detect problems. Most want me to turn a blind eye so to say. I say the motivation to mess with copper is just too great. The fact that copper changes easily is too problematic. >>


    Yes, it's a huge conspiracy and you are now on to it. Congrats! image
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would never buy red copper.......it's BROWN waiting to happen!image
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  • << <i>If you really want to get upset, go out and buy a dozen full Red copper coins, then watch them change
    over the next decade. Better live in the desert if you want to collect Red copper coins, as virtually any
    other environment will start attacking them. >>

    Ah fiddlesticks! Slabs protect the copper color. I hear all this bellyachin about red copper turing in the holders but I almost never see any concrete examples of same. Just a lot of bloviating about it. I live in humid NY and have not had anything turn. image
  • MikeInFLMikeInFL Posts: 10,188 ✭✭✭✭
    Realone, It appears you now have a greater appreciation as to why I prefer to collect BN coins with some red left on them, or high-end RB coins. Pure RD copper is VERY expensive and VERY reactive -- simply too high a risk for this collector's blood. If I were giving you advice, I would find a nice high-end RB coin that's grown some skin and whose color has stabilized as a result...Mike

    [edited to add: now you probably can also appreciate the crazy prices paid for red coins with a strong continuous provenance]
    Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In general, red color is cooler than brown color. And in general, I'm happy to pay a premium for red color. However, if you buy coins one at a time, there is no need to genralize about such things.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    FYI...QDB has stated that 90%+ of red IHCs he has seen were treated to make them look that way...cyanide anyone? That said I have been a copper collector for most of my life and do not generally buy Red, but to each his own.
    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭
    I actually like brown copper over red myself, I would pay more to know that my large cents are gonna look as nice to me as when I picked them out, but I guess thats just me. I also wouldn't pay multiples for toning on silver. I would however pay well for a coin that passes my eye test, with magnification of course as being pleasing to the eye with no bad details (i.e. cleaned, pvc, corrosion). Sorry just wanted to post a opinion from a fellow collector, not all that glitters is gold or red copper for that matter.
    Positive BST transactions:michaeldixon,nibanny,
    type2,CCHunter.
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,521 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Copper SCARES the crap out of me too! I would love some red coins...but in 20 years they might be RED/BROWN. Yikes!
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
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  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Realone, It appears you now have a greater appreciation as to why I prefer to collect BN coins with some red left on them, or high-end RB coins. Pure RD copper is VERY expensive and VERY reactive -- simply too high a risk for this collector's blood. If I were giving you advice, I would find a nice high-end RB coin that's grown some skin and whose color has stabilized as a result...Mike

    [edited to add: now you probably can also appreciate the crazy prices paid for red coins with a strong continuous provenance] >>




    Good advice Mike, I mean great advice, unfortunately after 1 week of due diligence on a coin and the dealer's unwillingness to go down, even though befire I asked him to send it to me on approval he knew that I wasn't going to pay his price, I have decided to stay with silver and not venture out into the redneck world of copper or bronze for that matter. I understand silver and feel very comfrotable with it no reason to risk my neck for red a la the term "redneck".image >>


    Why would someone send out a coin on approval, if they knew you were unwilling to pay for it?image
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 13,096 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Realone, here's a nice red one you'd like for its originality and its condition rarity.

    image

    "Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso

  • RayboRaybo Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Copper is the most reactive with the environment of the three alloys, old copper should be brown IMHO and that's the way I like it. image
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I love most shades of copper except muddy brown.

    A original red piece is something to behold, but there's alot to be said for RB and BN - just look at some of the MPL's posted here over the years.

    You need to be really careful before venturing into red copper as there is alot of unoriginal red stuff out there.

    This 1899 is what you need to be looking for - PCGS MS67R.

    image

    This 1872 PCGS 66RB was one of my favories even though at one time I collected primarily red IHC's.

    image

    Dark brown chocolate MPD ..... image

    image

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • joefrojoefro Posts: 1,872 ✭✭
    You'll be safe as long as you collect nice original chocolate brown copper. image
    Lincoln Cent & Libertad Collector
  • DAMDAM Posts: 2,410 ✭✭
    You'll be safe as long as you collect nice original chocolate brown copper.

    Yep... nowhere to go but up from there. image
    Dan
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "...You need to be really careful before venturing into red copper as there is alot of unoriginal red stuff out there...."

    Yep. There are lots of 19th-century so-called red coppers that are anything but. Be very careful. They have fooled graders,
    which is why PCGS will not guarantee the color on red coppers anymore.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

    CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
  • DAMDAM Posts: 2,410 ✭✭
    Since we're discussing color, specifically Red, take a look at Stack's... lot #1729. I'd like to know how that got a RD designation.

    Attractive? Perhaps. Red? No! Not in my opinion.

    I have not seen this coin in hand and have to concede it may not be quite as colorful as the picture suggests. In my book it's RB at best.





    Dan
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't much trust red early copper, or much care about red recent copper. I like an old, honest, stable, trustworthy RB best

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • bestclser1bestclser1 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭


    << <i>In general, red color is cooler than brown color. And in general, I'm happy to pay a premium for red color. However, if you buy coins one at a time, there is no need to genralize about such things. >>

    Andy,AND while we all respect your opinion about red copper,its up to every individuals taste to prefer RB or BN copper because,i donr believe that the nprice guarantee applies to red copper,and many of us just prefer the originality of toned or original non red copper SO MUCH better.Unfortunately too many people buy the registry copper,i just dig the cool stuff .JMHO,and agree with the OP.image
    Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!


  • << <i>I would never buy red copper.......it's BROWN waiting to happen!image >>



    image
  • WestySteveWestySteve Posts: 567 ✭✭✭
    I'll tell you something about red copper. Back in '95, I was hunting for the 1995 dd cent. I didn't find any, but I went through about $50 worth of cents in the process. I put them all in a small open box inside my very humid (Florida) garage, where they reside to this day.

    But here's the interesting part. The top layer of those coins has turned color, but if you dig past the surface, the deeper layers are still red. The top layer acts as a sacrificial anode.

    So my thought is...what if you buy some nice, expensive high grade red cents in the slab. Then bury that slab deep in a pile of brand new cents. Maybe put all of that inside some tupper ware. I'm thinking the oxygen would react with the copper it could easily get to and leave the copper buried deeper down alone.

    Any of you chemists want to weigh in on that?

    Edit: Hey, do they make copper foil? Could you wrap most of a slab in copper foil, except the little viewing window?

    Steve
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Red copper and blast white silver are completely different animals. IMO, the best value is the brown copper with etchings of red around the devices, and the second best value is the RB copper with a lot of red. >>



    image

    Well put Dirty Gold Man! image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Realone just skip the modern copper and start collecting Vermonts. You chances of bumping into RED are slim to none.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Glossy lustrous chocolate brown early copper coins can be just as beautiful are full red coins. That said, would you guys pay a premium for a solid red large cent in an older OGH or rattler slab because of the perception that if it hasn't changed in that slab in the last 20 years that the color must be stable? Also, if cyanide was used to help create the red color, would the new PCGS sniffer pick up the cyanide? What if the cyanide was used 100 years ago---would the sniffer still pick it up?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

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