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I was about to start collecting another type and stopped dead in my tracks....
Realone
Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
upon learning how red copper is so valued, something like 10x non red valuation just because the copper is red? Isn't red equivalent to blast white silver? So an untoned copper coin, clean as a whistle, the color is left the mint is valued at approx 10x, something we normally give for extreme rarities, something we sometimes give for incredibly toned and original silver......mighty interesting. I rather have a dramatically toned copper, far more interesting and original and a heck of alot cheaper. Funny thing is I was inspecting this ms65RED copper and noticed under high mag...I know I shouldn't put it under high mag, like 9x to 23x because I coin just shouldn't be looked at so closely, and I was able to see bits of discoloration and possible corrosion, something that the tpg eveidently missed and everyone I showed it to.
What can I say, I have been in the dark, I never realized that red copper was coveted like blast white silver, that day it left the mint color that many collector's desire. And to think of a naturally toned piece of copper typically classified as REDBROWN being looked at as a lowly piece of copper and dramatically cheaper, heaven forebid that it is BROWN that it is consdiered garbage, no wonder the Ricko dislike tarnished silver!
Now I understand........our hobby is deeply flawed!
Needless to say I am not venturing into copper, staying far away from that...........especially when we all know how reactive copper is, I could just see myself in 5 years when that RED ms65 starts to change and thousands are subtracted from the value even though the holder still says REDms65.
What can I say, I have been in the dark, I never realized that red copper was coveted like blast white silver, that day it left the mint color that many collector's desire. And to think of a naturally toned piece of copper typically classified as REDBROWN being looked at as a lowly piece of copper and dramatically cheaper, heaven forebid that it is BROWN that it is consdiered garbage, no wonder the Ricko dislike tarnished silver!
Now I understand........our hobby is deeply flawed! Needless to say I am not venturing into copper, staying far away from that...........especially when we all know how reactive copper is, I could just see myself in 5 years when that RED ms65 starts to change and thousands are subtracted from the value even though the holder still says REDms65. 0
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>Red copper and blast white silver are completely different animals. IMO, the best value is the brown copper with etchings of red around the devices, and the second best value is the RB copper with a lot of red. >>
I knew someone or many would say that...but i like to look at things from a completely different perspective. Blast white (silver) and red (copper) are the original colors liaving the mint, collectors love anything that looks like it was just minted yesterday and will pay up for it. Toned silver reminds me of toned copper (brown and redbrown). In both instances both are untarnished metals, the way they were minted 100+ years ago, tell me where I am going wrong? >>
The red coin has faded since it left mint, but remains a mellow red. It is far, far more unusual to see an original red copper large cent than it is a blast white seated half. A well-dipped seated coin will resemble a "new" coin, while it is very hard (if not impossible) to capture the original mint red of an old large cent.
At any rate, the market agrees with my opinion more than yours. Mint red early copper is valued more than brown. You cannot say the same about white vs. toned silver. I do think that there are some very interesting color possibilities with brown copper, but many of these have had surface manipulation, too.
Especially when there are so many levels of Red. You could almost make an argument for 3 or so Red color levels, before you throw in RB and BN.
In other words, you do not care what the coin looks like, as long as it is rare or low mintage. Got it.
I pay a premium for coins that have a natural and attractive appearance. It's just what I do.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It takes much more skill and is extremely esoteric in its nature.
Count me out!!
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
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over the next decade. Better live in the desert if you want to collect Red copper coins, as virtually any
other environment will start attacking them.
<< <i>If you really want to get upset, go out and buy a dozen full Red copper coins, then watch them change
over the next decade. Better live in the desert if you want to collect Red copper coins, as virtually any
other environment will start attacking them. >>
You bring out a good point. And makes one wonder why there has never been a hermetically sealed slab that could be guaranteed to remain at what the coin was graded at.
<< <i>No RYK,
I want as original and natural and as high grade a specimen as I can manage to find, but i don't want to pay for red, when the fact of the matter due to the problems associated with time and every change in red is a detriment ie subtraction (forgetting that PCGS has stopped guaranteeing them which screams hint hint btw) and that is the natural aging process of the metal. At least with silver, it gets better with time ie tarnish of course in 300 years when it becomes blach is another thing but myself and all my relatives won't be here 300 years from now, but copper's every change is looked upon as a detriment, however when you collect brown or redbrown the opposite is true. This red goal is problematic to say the least. With red it is like playing musical chairs, you don't want to be the last guy holding right after it turns and becomes what thte tpg's might deem as unred. >>
I am not saying that you should collect red copper, and I do not collect red copper. I am saying that you should not condemn red copper. Original red copper large cents are truly magnificent and among the most aesthetically pleasing classic US coins one can find. Their sensitivity and transient nature makes them even more desirable--like lightning in a bottle.
<< <i>I just find it interesting what RYK is implying.
Everyone here talks about coin doctoring with silver, we see how the doctors are toning coins and getting the big multiples or repairing coins via toning by hiding problem coins and allowing them to grade and thus making multiples, but when you look at the ridiculous multiples paid for red copper no one talks about the motivation for coin doctoring there. Why is it when I talk to knowledgable dealers they say it is impossilbe to touch copper and their not knowing it, I say that is hogwash since no one looks at these things close enough. everyone tells me I shouldn't put my coins under high mag, but that is one of the ways to detect problems. Most want me to turn a blind eye so to say. I say the motivation to mess with copper is just too great. The fact that copper changes easily is too problematic. >>
Yes, it's a huge conspiracy and you are now on to it. Congrats!
<< <i>If you really want to get upset, go out and buy a dozen full Red copper coins, then watch them change
over the next decade. Better live in the desert if you want to collect Red copper coins, as virtually any
other environment will start attacking them. >>
Ah fiddlesticks! Slabs protect the copper color. I hear all this bellyachin about red copper turing in the holders but I almost never see any concrete examples of same. Just a lot of bloviating about it. I live in humid NY and have not had anything turn.
[edited to add: now you probably can also appreciate the crazy prices paid for red coins with a strong continuous provenance]
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<< <i>
<< <i>Realone, It appears you now have a greater appreciation as to why I prefer to collect BN coins with some red left on them, or high-end RB coins. Pure RD copper is VERY expensive and VERY reactive -- simply too high a risk for this collector's blood. If I were giving you advice, I would find a nice high-end RB coin that's grown some skin and whose color has stabilized as a result...Mike
[edited to add: now you probably can also appreciate the crazy prices paid for red coins with a strong continuous provenance] >>
Good advice Mike, I mean great advice, unfortunately after 1 week of due diligence on a coin and the dealer's unwillingness to go down, even though befire I asked him to send it to me on approval he knew that I wasn't going to pay his price, I have decided to stay with silver and not venture out into the redneck world of copper or bronze for that matter. I understand silver and feel very comfrotable with it no reason to risk my neck for red a la the term "redneck".
Why would someone send out a coin on approval, if they knew you were unwilling to pay for it?
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
A original red piece is something to behold, but there's alot to be said for RB and BN - just look at some of the MPL's posted here over the years.
You need to be really careful before venturing into red copper as there is alot of unoriginal red stuff out there.
This 1899 is what you need to be looking for - PCGS MS67R.
This 1872 PCGS 66RB was one of my favories even though at one time I collected primarily red IHC's.
Dark brown chocolate MPD .....
Yep... nowhere to go but up from there.
Yep. There are lots of 19th-century so-called red coppers that are anything but. Be very careful. They have fooled graders,
which is why PCGS will not guarantee the color on red coppers anymore.
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CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Attractive? Perhaps. Red? No! Not in my opinion.
I have not seen this coin in hand and have to concede it may not be quite as colorful as the picture suggests. In my book it's RB at best.
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<< <i>In general, red color is cooler than brown color. And in general, I'm happy to pay a premium for red color. However, if you buy coins one at a time, there is no need to genralize about such things. >>
Andy,AND while we all respect your opinion about red copper,its up to every individuals taste to prefer RB or BN copper because,i donr believe that the nprice guarantee applies to red copper,and many of us just prefer the originality of toned or original non red copper SO MUCH better.Unfortunately too many people buy the registry copper,i just dig the cool stuff .JMHO,and agree with the OP.
<< <i>I would never buy red copper.......it's BROWN waiting to happen!
But here's the interesting part. The top layer of those coins has turned color, but if you dig past the surface, the deeper layers are still red. The top layer acts as a sacrificial anode.
So my thought is...what if you buy some nice, expensive high grade red cents in the slab. Then bury that slab deep in a pile of brand new cents. Maybe put all of that inside some tupper ware. I'm thinking the oxygen would react with the copper it could easily get to and leave the copper buried deeper down alone.
Any of you chemists want to weigh in on that?
Edit: Hey, do they make copper foil? Could you wrap most of a slab in copper foil, except the little viewing window?
Steve
<< <i>Red copper and blast white silver are completely different animals. IMO, the best value is the brown copper with etchings of red around the devices, and the second best value is the RB copper with a lot of red. >>
Well put Dirty Gold Man!
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