Someone paid $291 for this unsearched wheat cent roll and got a RIP (seated dime guys look too)

seanq

I was watching this auction all week hoping nobody would notice what I saw, but my $255 snipe bid never fired. Check out the seller's picture below of one end of the roll and you'll understand why this might have been the ultimate "unsearched" wheat roll auction:



Assuming the reverse is problem free, in that grade the 1873 w/arrows DDO is about a $500-600 coin. The last one I saw sold (also unattributed, but easily spotted and widely known) was slightly nicer and went for nearly $700 last year. As rare as this variety is, I've seen at least half a dozen unattributed examples on eBay in the last 3+ years, a stretch of time where I've looked at literally every 1873 w/arrows dime being offered.


Sean Reynolds

braddick

I'm surprised your snipe bid wasn't higher.

Lakesammman

I saw it but assumed there had to be a problem. Didn't want to be the one to figure it out since once you open the roll, you own it.

seanq

<< <i>I'm surprised your snipe bid wasn't higher. >>




If I could have seen the reverse, or if I was planning to hang onto it, it would have been. But I was bidding on it to flip it, and for all I know there could be a love token engraved on the reverse.


Sean Reynolds

fc

I am not seeing the DDO goodness. Any tips on how you identified it so easily?

JCMhouston

I'm guessing the seller knows exactly what they have and no one got a rip.

seanq

<< <i>I am not seeing the DDO goodness. Any tips on how you identified it so easily? >>



Look where the horizontal and vertical lines of the shield meet, the underlying image is rotated about 10 degrees counterclockwise. There's a thread posted in the last week or so I'll have to find with a photo of a mint state example if you search. Here's a picture of the first one I ever cherried, hopefully you can see it a little better here:




Sean Reynolds

fc

Oh heck, that is so easy to see now that you explained it. Thanks

Shamika

Unsearched? Yea right!

Unknown

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roadrunner

Based on the price fetched, a few people must have known what this was.

DBSTrader2

How can the SHIELD only "slip" to be a DDO, but nothing else, apparently (like the date, lettering, etc)? I'm confused.

originalisbest

I would bet Capt Henway could explain how that error occurred.

bob48

Now I have learned about a 1873 DDO arrows dime Neat!
I have always liked that date, seems harder to find then the 1853 arrows
Thanks

yosclimber

Here's a thread on the 1873 10c DDO from just a few days ago with some more photos
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=847894&STARTPAGE=1


photo by Mark Goodman

frnklnlvr

<< <i>The last one I saw sold (also unattributed, but easily spotted and widely known) was slightly nicer and went for nearly $700 last year. As rare as this variety is, I've seen at least half a dozen unattributed examples on eBay in the last 3+ years, a stretch of time where I've looked at literally every 1873 w/arrows dime being offered. >>



I saw an unattributed example on Ebay about a year and a half ago or so that went for either $1400 or $2400 (can't remember).

Mission16

<< <i>How can the SHIELD only "slip" to be a DDO, but nothing else, apparently (like the date, lettering, etc)? I'm confused. >>

DrPete

How do you know the back isn't a love token or otherwise ruined for the numismatic value?

Baley

wow, neat coin, thanks for the post, I didn't even know this coin existed, guess I've learned one new thing today

originalisbest

DrPete, indeed, that would be a risk for this coin! I could see it having a large scrape or otherwise damaged back.

streeter

Wouldn't that be a way to get a premium price for a scarce low grade coin with an objectionable reverse?

I'm with the ....seller knew what he was doing....crowd.

MadMarty

It's amazing that the sell found all those rolls with Dimes on the ends, and that they are all wrapped in the same paper!! What a SCAM!!!

rhedden

I did not look at the auction or who the seller is. However, the kind of person who runs these unsearched wheat roll auctions may be unscrupulous enough to switch out the dime for another 1873 dime after he/she figures out something is up. Look for this seller to get negged next week after pulling a bait and switch, and the dime will be listed as a new auction with full disclosure.

seanq

<< <i>I did not look at the auction or who the seller is. However, the kind of person who runs these unsearched wheat roll auctions may be unscrupulous enough to switch out the dime for another 1873 dime after he/she figures out something is up. Look for this seller to get negged next week after pulling a bait and switch, and the dime will be listed as a new auction with full disclosure. >>




It's either someone so unscrupulous they used that as a "bait coin", or someone so incredulous that they won't realize what they had or why the auction sold for the price it did. I've purchased these kind of rolls before where I've cherrypicked a variety in the end coin and I've always received exactly what was pictured, so I tend to believe this will be the latter.


Sean Reynolds

Dentuck

How does the seller know it isn't
actually a roll of Liberty Seated
dimes with a wheat cent on one
end?

WinLoseWin

<< <i>How does the seller know it isn't
actually a roll of Liberty Seated
dimes with a wheat cent on one
end? >>



It must be psychic powers as such sellers surely don't assemble these themselves looking for suckers.

And what bank keeps wrapping different denominations together. Such unknowable mysteries life has.

EagleEye

This is a pivoted hub doubled die, Class V, with the pivot around the 2:00 position on the rim. This is just like the 1873 Doubled LIBERTY Indian cent in that not all areas are doubled.

The blank die is slightly cone-shaped at the start. When the first impression is made the die may not be impressed much more than 1/2 way down. The second, correctly aligned, impression pushed the design all the way into the die. The doubled area is only in the center area of the die because of this. The area with the lesser doubling is the NE quadrant, by the pivot-point. The biggest spread is in the opposite area.

RollSearcher

<< <i>How does the seller know it isn't
actually a roll of Liberty Seated
dimes with a wheat cent on one
end? >>



The best part is that the seller advertises the dime on one end and an IHC on the other, so there's actually nothing to suggest that there would be ANY wheat cents in the roll!

seanq

<< <i>This is a pivoted hub doubled die, Class V, with the pivot around the 2:00 position on the rim. This is just like the 1873 Doubled LIBERTY Indian cent in that not all areas are doubled.

The blank die is slightly cone-shaped at the start. When the first impression is made the die may not be impressed much more than 1/2 way down. The second, correctly aligned, impression pushed the design all the way into the die. The doubled area is only in the center area of the die because of this. The area with the lesser doubling is the NE quadrant, by the pivot-point. The biggest spread is in the opposite area. >>



Rick, there's a link on the first page of this thread to another thread featuring a very high grade specimen of this doubled die. I echoed a lot of your first paragraph above there, but in the large images it looks to me like this could be a tripled die, with the sharp horizontal lines under the first impression and across the gown representing the first hubbing. I'd love if you could take a look and see if you agree: Link to earlier thread


Sean Reynolds

Mission16

<< <i>

<< <i>How does the seller know it isn't
actually a roll of Liberty Seated
dimes with a wheat cent on one
end? >>



It must be psychic powers as such sellers surely don't assemble these themselves looking for suckers.

And what bank keeps wrapping different denominations together. Such unknowable mysteries life has. >>




There's a ad in Numismatic News with these kind of rolls. Sells them as Wheat rolls but there is a indian cent on one end and a silver dime on the other.

yosclimber

Sean,



<< <i>Rick, there's a link on the first page of this thread to another thread featuring a very high grade specimen of this doubled die. I echoed a lot of your first paragraph above there, but in the large images it looks to me like this could be a tripled die, with the sharp horizontal lines under the first impression and across the gown representing the first hubbing. I'd love if you could take a look and see if you agree: >>



Are you referring to the "diagonal" parallel lines above the LIBERTY sash?



I'm seeing about 6 lines, like on the upper part of the shield, although I don't see the top of the shield.


rotated -43 degrees

Gery Fortin calls it a DDO, based on his AU-55 specimen that took him years to find.
http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/preview/1873wa_103page.htm

Realone's specimen above is MS-61, and the potential TDO lines are clearer in the photos he posted by Mark Goodman.

seanq

Those are the lines I'm talking about, in the MS61 coin they are visible on the front of the gown as well. I was the one who found Gerry's coin, I cherrypicked it off eBay and sold it to him, so I've had opportunity to examine a high grade specimen in hand. Those lines always puzzled me, at first I thought they were an attempt to remove the doubling but they seemed to be under the other two hubbings.


Sean Reynolds

yosclimber

The "diagonal" lines are plainly visible in the photo in Brian Greer's book, too.
Not very visible in the photo in Breen's Encyclopedia, though.

I think you are right about the TDO.

I see those lines out further right/down in the gown, but they are more like pairs of lines,
instead of the 6 closely together.
The upper right corner of the shield might be out there in the gown, though?

Breen states that the die was lapped to remove other evidence of the DDO.