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Someone paid $291 for this unsearched wheat cent roll and got a RIP (seated dime guys look too)

seanqseanq Posts: 8,731 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was watching this auction all week hoping nobody would notice what I saw, but my $255 snipe bid never fired. Check out the seller's picture below of one end of the roll and you'll understand why this might have been the ultimate "unsearched" wheat roll auction:

image

Assuming the reverse is problem free, in that grade the 1873 w/arrows DDO is about a $500-600 coin. The last one I saw sold (also unattributed, but easily spotted and widely known) was slightly nicer and went for nearly $700 last year. As rare as this variety is, I've seen at least half a dozen unattributed examples on eBay in the last 3+ years, a stretch of time where I've looked at literally every 1873 w/arrows dime being offered.


Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor

Comments

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,731 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm surprised your snipe bid wasn't higher.

    peacockcoins

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,447 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I saw it but assumed there had to be a problem. Didn't want to be the one to figure it out since once you open the roll, you own it.
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,731 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm surprised your snipe bid wasn't higher. >>




    If I could have seen the reverse, or if I was planning to hang onto it, it would have been. But I was bidding on it to flip it, and for all I know there could be a love token engraved on the reverse. image


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
    I am not seeing the DDO goodness. Any tips on how you identified it so easily?
  • JCMhoustonJCMhouston Posts: 5,306 ✭✭✭
    I'm guessing the seller knows exactly what they have and no one got a rip.
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,731 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I am not seeing the DDO goodness. Any tips on how you identified it so easily? >>



    Look where the horizontal and vertical lines of the shield meet, the underlying image is rotated about 10 degrees counterclockwise. There's a thread posted in the last week or so I'll have to find with a photo of a mint state example if you search. Here's a picture of the first one I ever cherried, hopefully you can see it a little better here:

    image


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
    Oh heck, that is so easy to see now that you explained it. Thanks
  • ShamikaShamika Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭
    Unsearched? Yea right!


    Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
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  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,313 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Based on the price fetched, a few people must have known what this was.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • DBSTrader2DBSTrader2 Posts: 3,498 ✭✭✭✭
    How can the SHIELD only "slip" to be a DDO, but nothing else, apparently (like the date, lettering, etc)? I'm confused.
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭✭
    I would bet Capt Henway could explain how that error occurred. image
  • bob48bob48 Posts: 460 ✭✭✭
    Now I have learned about a 1873 DDO arrows dime Neat!
    I have always liked that date, seems harder to find then the 1853 arrows
    Thanks
    Bob

    *
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's a thread on the 1873 10c DDO from just a few days ago with some more photos
    http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=847894&STARTPAGE=1

    image
    photo by Mark Goodman
  • frnklnlvrfrnklnlvr Posts: 2,750


    << <i>The last one I saw sold (also unattributed, but easily spotted and widely known) was slightly nicer and went for nearly $700 last year. As rare as this variety is, I've seen at least half a dozen unattributed examples on eBay in the last 3+ years, a stretch of time where I've looked at literally every 1873 w/arrows dime being offered. >>



    I saw an unattributed example on Ebay about a year and a half ago or so that went for either $1400 or $2400 (can't remember).
  • Mission16Mission16 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭


    << <i>How can the SHIELD only "slip" to be a DDO, but nothing else, apparently (like the date, lettering, etc)? I'm confused. >>





  • DrPeteDrPete Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭
    How do you know the back isn't a love token or otherwise ruined for the numismatic value?
    Dr. Pete
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wow, neat coin, thanks for the post, I didn't even know this coin existed, guess I've learned one new thing today

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,971 ✭✭✭✭
    DrPete, indeed, that would be a risk for this coin! I could see it having a large scrape or otherwise damaged back.
  • streeterstreeter Posts: 4,312 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wouldn't that be a way to get a premium price for a scarce low grade coin with an objectionable reverse?

    I'm with the ....seller knew what he was doing....crowd.
    Have a nice day
  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
    It's amazing that the sell found all those rolls with Dimes on the ends, and that they are all wrapped in the same paper!! What a SCAM!!!
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,632 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I did not look at the auction or who the seller is. However, the kind of person who runs these unsearched wheat roll auctions may be unscrupulous enough to switch out the dime for another 1873 dime after he/she figures out something is up. Look for this seller to get negged next week after pulling a bait and switch, and the dime will be listed as a new auction with full disclosure.
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,731 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I did not look at the auction or who the seller is. However, the kind of person who runs these unsearched wheat roll auctions may be unscrupulous enough to switch out the dime for another 1873 dime after he/she figures out something is up. Look for this seller to get negged next week after pulling a bait and switch, and the dime will be listed as a new auction with full disclosure. >>




    It's either someone so unscrupulous they used that as a "bait coin", or someone so incredulous that they won't realize what they had or why the auction sold for the price it did. I've purchased these kind of rolls before where I've cherrypicked a variety in the end coin and I've always received exactly what was pictured, so I tend to believe this will be the latter.


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭



    How does the seller know it isn't
    actually a roll of Liberty Seated
    dimes with a wheat cent on one
    end?




  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>How does the seller know it isn't
    actually a roll of Liberty Seated
    dimes with a wheat cent on one
    end? >>



    It must be psychic powers as such sellers surely don't assemble these themselves looking for suckers.

    And what bank keeps wrapping different denominations together. Such unknowable mysteries life has. image

    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a pivoted hub doubled die, Class V, with the pivot around the 2:00 position on the rim. This is just like the 1873 Doubled LIBERTY Indian cent in that not all areas are doubled.

    The blank die is slightly cone-shaped at the start. When the first impression is made the die may not be impressed much more than 1/2 way down. The second, correctly aligned, impression pushed the design all the way into the die. The doubled area is only in the center area of the die because of this. The area with the lesser doubling is the NE quadrant, by the pivot-point. The biggest spread is in the opposite area.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:


  • << <i>How does the seller know it isn't
    actually a roll of Liberty Seated
    dimes with a wheat cent on one
    end? >>



    The best part is that the seller advertises the dime on one end and an IHC on the other, so there's actually nothing to suggest that there would be ANY wheat cents in the roll!
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,731 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This is a pivoted hub doubled die, Class V, with the pivot around the 2:00 position on the rim. This is just like the 1873 Doubled LIBERTY Indian cent in that not all areas are doubled.

    The blank die is slightly cone-shaped at the start. When the first impression is made the die may not be impressed much more than 1/2 way down. The second, correctly aligned, impression pushed the design all the way into the die. The doubled area is only in the center area of the die because of this. The area with the lesser doubling is the NE quadrant, by the pivot-point. The biggest spread is in the opposite area. >>



    Rick, there's a link on the first page of this thread to another thread featuring a very high grade specimen of this doubled die. I echoed a lot of your first paragraph above there, but in the large images it looks to me like this could be a tripled die, with the sharp horizontal lines under the first impression and across the gown representing the first hubbing. I'd love if you could take a look and see if you agree: Link to earlier thread


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • Mission16Mission16 Posts: 1,413 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>How does the seller know it isn't
    actually a roll of Liberty Seated
    dimes with a wheat cent on one
    end? >>



    It must be psychic powers as such sellers surely don't assemble these themselves looking for suckers.

    And what bank keeps wrapping different denominations together. Such unknowable mysteries life has. image >>




    There's a ad in Numismatic News with these kind of rolls. Sells them as Wheat rolls but there is a indian cent on one end and a silver dime on the other. image
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sean,



    << <i>Rick, there's a link on the first page of this thread to another thread featuring a very high grade specimen of this doubled die. I echoed a lot of your first paragraph above there, but in the large images it looks to me like this could be a tripled die, with the sharp horizontal lines under the first impression and across the gown representing the first hubbing. I'd love if you could take a look and see if you agree: >>



    Are you referring to the "diagonal" parallel lines above the LIBERTY sash?

    image

    I'm seeing about 6 lines, like on the upper part of the shield, although I don't see the top of the shield.

    image
    rotated -43 degrees

    Gery Fortin calls it a DDO, based on his AU-55 specimen that took him years to find.
    http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/preview/1873wa_103page.htm

    Realone's specimen above is MS-61, and the potential TDO lines are clearer in the photos he posted by Mark Goodman.
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,731 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Those are the lines I'm talking about, in the MS61 coin they are visible on the front of the gown as well. I was the one who found Gerry's coin, I cherrypicked it off eBay and sold it to him, so I've had opportunity to examine a high grade specimen in hand. Those lines always puzzled me, at first I thought they were an attempt to remove the doubling but they seemed to be under the other two hubbings.


    Sean Reynolds
    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The "diagonal" lines are plainly visible in the photo in Brian Greer's book, too.
    Not very visible in the photo in Breen's Encyclopedia, though.

    I think you are right about the TDO.

    I see those lines out further right/down in the gown, but they are more like pairs of lines,
    instead of the 6 closely together.
    The upper right corner of the shield might be out there in the gown, though?

    Breen states that the die was lapped to remove other evidence of the DDO.

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