ANYONE HERE COLLECT CONTEMPORARY ISSUE COUNTERFEIT MORGANS ?

ebaybuyer

first, a really interesting newspaper article i found (if i can get the link to work) http://mojavedesert.net/mining-history/mescal-mine/index.html and second, i have a few questions for anyone that knows these things quite well, i know a few are the micro o's that were once thought to be genuine pieces, im wondering what to look for when offered SUPPOSED contemporary fakes made of silver ?

fastfreddie

Linkafied

A chore it is at least using Windows. You have to tell Windows (7) (or at least I do) to temporarily allow 'scripted windows' before you toggle the http buttom to copy the link in.

ebaybuyer

Text

ebaybuyer

thanks freddie, i am still learning to add links here. seems to be more of a chore than most other forums.

CoinRaritiesOnline

Cool! A great read.

Since I collect contemporary counterfeit US coinage, it was right up my alley. Thanks for posting it.

ebaybuyer

ive been researching counterfeits for a few years now, i could keep you busy with reading material for months

CoinRaritiesOnline

<< <i>ive been researching counterfeits for a few years now, i could keep you busy with reading material for months >>



PM sent.

PerryHall

Dave---How do the contemporary Morgan counterfeits differ from the counterfeits coming in from China these days? Interesting topic here.

AUandAG

I think that that read was interesting but baseless in facts. There was no Mescal mine in the Mescal
Range of California. At least not named as such. I think that it was an article written for entertainment
purposes.

The author did take some facts from the Range that appear true. For instance, Once refined the ore
did contain about 9.5% copper. That rings true to a silver coin.

I cannot find any of the names in that article associated with any of the Mescal Range mines of that
era (or later, either).

bob

ebaybuyer

bob, the article was in the los angeles times, the mescal mine is in AZ ...

ebaybuyer

the chinese fakes werent made to spend, they were made to sell to collectors, contemporary counterfeits were made to use as money.

AUandAG

<< <i>bob, the article was in the los angeles times, the mescal mine is in AZ ... >>



What am I missing. The article clearly says the Mescal Range and that's in California.

The Mescal Mountains are in Arizona and are never called the Mescal Range. There is no reference
to a Mescal Mine in either California or in Arizona. Gila County, Arizona is where the Mescal Mountains
are located. However, there are no production records for silver ore in the Mescal Mountains from
a mine with Mescal in the name. I'll look further but I don't see it. Will look for owners next and see
what comes up.

Arizona Library is a great reference source.

bob

PerryHall

<< <i>the chinese fakes werent made to spend, they were made to sell to collectors, contemporary counterfeits were made to use as money. >>



I knew this---I was curious how the quality of the contemporary counterfeits compared to what is coming out of China these days.

lkeigwin

That was a good read. It would have been nice to have the date and MM on the counterfeits. A single die pair was used, allegedly.

The article said the counterfeit dollar "was in large circulation, apparently all over the United States". Surely some survived.

They sound like very good copies if you believe the story. It took an expert with a loupe to determine the fakes. We don't (yet) have to work that hard with Morgans coming from China.
Lance.

ebaybuyer

im sure the date/mintmark info is somewhere, just gonna take some serious detective work

SaorAlba

I collect countefiets especially from the early 20th century - for a specific reason from a historical knowledge I have from that time.

ebaybuyer

according to the report of the quantity made, one could safely assume that more than one die pair was being used. if the equipment was there why only make one at a time ?

messydesk

Most of the contemporary counterfeit Morgan dollar research is centered around the family of "Micro O" counterfeits. These are dated 1896-O, 1900-O, 1901-O, and 1902-O, and were made with a reverse die matching the authentic 1899-O VAM 6. There are actually 20 die pairs that I'm pretty sure have been identified as coming from the same operation based on die markers, 5 from each of the above dates. All have been assigned VAM numbers for the purpose of tracking their family tree, even though they're not mint products. There's no conclusive evidence as to their origin. One theory is that they were made to circulate in Cuban casinos in the early half of the 20th century. A dangerous proposition for the counterfeiter, no doubt.

ebaybuyer

is there an online reference for contemporary cft morgans ?

lkeigwin

<< <i>according to the report of the quantity made, one could safely assume that more than one die pair was being used. if the equipment was there why only make one at a time ? >>

Dunno. I was just going by the article.

"The points of difference between the genuine and the imitation coins having been once noted, it was possible to detect all of these fraudulent issues, since they were all lacking in the same particulars. These particulars consisted of certain shades of inferiority in the execution of the whole of the obverse and of the eagle of the reverse; a difference which, however, was not apparent upon casual observation, and could only be originally perceived by the aid of lenses in a studied comparison between the genuine and the counterfeit.

It was clear, therefore, to the Secret Service Bureau of the government that all of these illegal coins were made with the same die."

ebaybuyer

in" large circulation, apparently all over the US" ... on a single die pair. yeah i guess it would make more sense that the counterfeiters made one coin at a time, off a single pair of homemade dies, and neither of that single die pair showed any fatigue or failure after striking enough coins to be in large circulation all over the US ..

messydesk

<< <i>I knew this---I was curious how the quality of the contemporary counterfeits compared to what is coming out of China these days. >>


In high grade, the current Chinese ones are much better. The micro-O coins are seldom found above VF, as they circulated. The few that exist in higher grades have fairly obvious casting flaws and mushy details.


<< <i>is there an online reference for contemporary cft morgans ? >>


VAMWorld has each of the 20 die pairs I mention earlier described on the pages for their respective dates, but there isn't an online summary of how all the die marriages go together. Leroy Van Allen has written a monograph about these that goes into more depth, which is available for purchase from him. I believe this also touches on some contemporary counterfeits that are not part of the "micro-O counterfeit" family tree.

CoinRaritiesOnline

<< <i>VAMWorld has each of the 20 die pairs I mention earlier described on the pages for their respective dates, but there isn't an online summary of how all the die marriages go together. Leroy Van Allen has written a monograph about these that goes into more depth, which is available for purchase from him. I believe this also touches on some contemporary counterfeits that are not part of the "micro-O counterfeit" family tree. >>



I wasn't aware of this. Thanks, John!

C0INB0Y

I liken this activity to collecting Land Mines and home-made IED's.

I would always fear one would go off and kill me in an explosion should something go wrong.

Its hard enough collecting the real Coins.

AUandAG

The Mescal Mine was in fact located in California. It may not have been in the Mescal Range but in the Southern
end of Clark Mountain. It was located in 1869 and did produce silver. But, then here's where the author's
article goes off base. The name was changed from Mescal to Cambria in the 1880's. So, the author was not up to
speed in 1895 when he wrote that article as the Mescal Mine did not exist, but in memory.

The Los Angeles newspaper, as did many, often had a article or two that were much like the tabloids of today
that you see that the grocery checkout stand. This was such an article. Total bunk.

bob

beartracks42

Here is my one and only(best of my knowledge) counterfeit Morgan. This coin was bought long ago, in a dark auction house with poor lighting for grading a coin. I think that visions of profit plus lack of seeing very many counterfeit coins, led to my demise here. I now refer to the experience as "TUITION".









Edit to give credit to our own Todd for the pic's.

RichR

Excuse an ignorant question...but am I to assume that the fakes were actually struck in silver (or not)?

And if they are silver, what would have been the point of making a fake $1 coin...as the metal would practically cost as much as the real thing.

nesvt

this one has a nice look...

messydesk

<< <i>Excuse an ignorant question...but am I to assume that the fakes were actually struck in silver (or not)?

And if they are silver, what would have been the point of making a fake $1 coin...as the metal would practically cost as much as the real thing. >>


The micro-O counterfeits were struck in silver and are actually a little more than 90%. For much of the 1st half of the 20th century, silver was less than $1/oz. If a fake could be made for 40-60c, it was worth making a bunch.

PerryHall

beartracks42---That 1894 Morgan would have fooled me! What about that coin makes it a counterfeit? Is it a totally made counterfeit or is it a real coin that has been altered to make a better date Morgan?

beartracks42

<< <i>beartracks42---That 1894 Morgan would have fooled me! What about that coin makes it a counterfeit? Is it a totally made counterfeit or is it a real coin that has been altered to make a better date Morgan? >>



Perry,
The coin is only 25.6 grams in weight. Morgan dollars should weigh 26.73+/-. It is made of silver, but if you look closely below the eagle's tailfeathers, there is a "bubbled-up area(hard to see) that indicates that this piece is cast. It fooled me and several of my friends, until a dealer friend found the break in the casting. One of my friends convinced me to submit it to ANACS and it came back "not genuine".

AUandAG

Plumped up breast and missing detail on right wing are big tells.

bob

DaveG

AuandAg,

Although the time period isn't quite right, perhaps this is the mine.

AUandAG

That Newspaper guy had ESP.! I didn't see that mine as it was long after 1895 that it was
established and off my radar. Perhaps the article was the impetus for naming the mine as
it was not located in the Mescal Range or Mescal Mountains. The Arizona's Mescal Mtns are
in Gila not Yuma County.

It was just literary license.

Fun to debunk and research, though! Right, DaveG?

bob