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ESPN's "Catching Hell"

TonyCTonyC Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭
in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
Has anyone ever seen this documentary? My son and I started watching it last night after we got tired of the NBA All-Star Game. We both thought it was very well done.

The documentary covers the Steve Bartman incident in the 2003 NLCS.
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  • IronmanfanIronmanfan Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭✭
    saw it a couple months ago; overall good although they kind of drew it out longer than it could be..

    treated that footage like the Zapruder film LOL

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  • 1980scollector1980scollector Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭
    Watched it last night-

    I feel so bad for Bartman.

    Much respect that he never has taken a dime when he could have made probably a million dollars in appearances/commercials/autographs.

    I always rooted for Boston to win one for thier fans and my parents did take me to Fenway one time, in 1986, so I liked them behind the Reds.

    I want to root for the Cubs to win one now just to let the guy have a life again. However, it is hard the way some acted that night.

    Pretty sad it turned out this way for him from my point of view.
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  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,213 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great documentary.

    Personally, I kinda root AGAINST the Cubs as a result of that incident. The way the fans treated him, they don't deserve to celebrate a championship. They pin so much blame on Bartman when the blame really lies elsewhere. Especially since Moises Alou himself SAID HE COULDN"T HAVE CAUGHT THE BALL.

    Tabe
  • mtcardsmtcards Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭
    Would they have treated the woman sitting next to him the same way, when she reached for the ball too?
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  • CrazyMind2017CrazyMind2017 Posts: 1,205 ✭


    << <i>Would they have treated the woman sitting next to him the same way, when she reached for the ball too? >>



    No, of course not, but if I explain why, this thread will go poof.

    All I kept thinking about when watching this documentary was the Todd Zeile double in the 6th inning of Game 1 of the 2000 World Series. Copied verbatim from retrosheet: Zeile doubled to left [Perez out at home (left to shortstop to catcher)]; the ball hit the top of the padding and came back onto the field; the Mets thought it was a homer and cruised; Perez then started running again but was out by 3 steps

    I was sitting in the left field bleachers that night, so I had a decent side-angle view of the play. I later found out that a Yankee fan who had been sitting in the front row directly behind the spot where the ball hit the top of the wall leaned back in the hopes that the ball would go back onto the field. That's exactly what it did, and it completely changed the course of World Series history. Had the fan reached for the ball, it likely would have been ruled a home run, or at least a GR double. The play certainly wouldn't have ended the inning, because Justice to Jeter to Posada never would have happened. Not only would the Mets have scored at least one run that inning, but it would have turned over the order at least one more batter. They ultimately scored 3 runs in the following inning. That would have been completely changed as well, and we don't have any idea what would have happened if that 7th inning rally started with none out instead of one out. It's quite possible that Perez getting thrown out at the plate changed the outcome of the entire series. Whoever that fan was sitting in the front row out in left field, I'd like to thank him from the bottom of my heart and the depths of my soul.

    So I don't buy that Bartman was overcome by the excitement of the moment. He should have known better, and the other guy who reached out is just as guilty as Bartman, but doesn't get the same negative attention. That being said, the entire incident (which is still on-going and will never truly end) was fueled almost entirely by Alou's reaction on the field in the moments immediately following the play. If he hadn't been so demonstrative, the other 30,000+ fans in the ballpark wouldn't have started reacting that way.

    Although Alou said he wouldn't have been able to catch the ball anyway, the video seems pretty clear to me that if the stands had been empty, an extraordinary catch would have been possible. It's not a catch that any average outfielder could ever make with ordinary effort, but a great outfielder might catch it once out of every 10 or so attempts. Clemente probably half the time. But this is with the stands empty and no fans to fight with.

    Bottom line is that Alex Gonzalez deserves 99% of the blame for everything that happened that inning, so when the remaining 1% gets divided up, Bartman isn't blameless, but he got a really, really raw deal from the press and from the fans.
  • mlbfan2mlbfan2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭


    << <i>They pin so much blame on Bartman when the blame really lies elsewhere. Especially since Moises Alou himself SAID HE COULDN"T HAVE CAUGHT THE BALL.
    >>



    Alou says he doesn't recall saying that, or said it as a joke.

    Wikipedia says:
    In April 2008, Moisés Alou was quoted by the Associated Press as saying, "You know what the funny thing is? I wouldn't have caught it, anyway."[20] However, Alou later disputed that story. "I don't remember that", he said to a writer from the Palm Beach Post. "If I said that, I was probably joking to make [Bartman] feel better. But I don't remember saying that.'"[21] Alou added, "It's time to forgive the guy and move on."[21]
  • Cokin75Cokin75 Posts: 243 ✭✭
    So I don't buy that Bartman was overcome by the excitement of the moment. He should have known better, and the other guy who reached out is just as guilty as Bartman, but doesn't get the same negative attention

    Exactly. You should know better if you are sitting on the first row seats. I still think that Alou had a pretty good chance to catch that ball, judging from his reaction at the time, obviously he did back then as well.
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Tony Tarasco says he would've got the ball, too... image
  • jeffcbayjeffcbay Posts: 8,950 ✭✭✭✭
    All I've got to say is JEFFREY FREAKING MAIER!! That effing catch turned that brat kid into a hero, and he did NOTHING different than what Bartman did. If Bartman interfered with a ball hit by the Cubs and it messed up the Marlins outfielder, then he would have ALSO had dugout seats, been on David Letterman, and given a key to the city! Am I still bitter? What do you think?
  • GDM67GDM67 Posts: 2,526 ✭✭✭✭
    1. He has behaved with real dignity in this aftermath, as 1980scollector says.

    2. He should have backed off of the ball to benefit the home team, as CM2017 says.

    3. Jeff doesn't exactly say this, so I will: Jeffrey Maier should've been sold to an orphanage in Calcutta.
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  • uyu906uyu906 Posts: 276 ✭✭
    I have always wanted to punch that guy - ever since 1996. Never forget!



    << <i>All I've got to say is JEFFREY FREAKING MAIER!! That effing catch turned that brat kid into a hero, and he did NOTHING different than what Bartman did. If Bartman interfered with a ball hit by the Cubs and it messed up the Marlins outfielder, then he would have ALSO had dugout seats, been on David Letterman, and given a key to the city! Am I still bitter? What do you think? >>

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  • alifaxwa2alifaxwa2 Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I have always wanted to punch that guy - ever since 1996. Never forget!



    << <i>All I've got to say is JEFFREY FREAKING MAIER!! That effing catch turned that brat kid into a hero, and he did NOTHING different than what Bartman did. If Bartman interfered with a ball hit by the Cubs and it messed up the Marlins outfielder, then he would have ALSO had dugout seats, been on David Letterman, and given a key to the city! Am I still bitter? What do you think? >>

    >>


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  • Bosox1976Bosox1976 Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was at all of the Cubs playoff games that year.... what a travesty; here are my thoughts on the series/outcome/incident:

    A) Alou could not have caught it
    B) The SS boner was worse
    C) Prior imploded
    D) It was the second such time a fan got in the way of a ball (a pop up between home and first early in the series)
    E) Whomever released Bartman's name should have been charged with a privacy invasion
    F) After Kerry Wood's homer in game 7, the electricity and euphoria was unbelievable at Wrigley (better than a championship fight or a football playoff game)... gut wrenching to lose that game 7 after that
    G) I had the most kick-azz World Series seats.... and was sure it would be Cubs v. Red Sox
    H) Immediately flew to New York and saw Boston lose game 7 to the Yankees. WTF? Where did my dream series go?
    I) Reminds me of the Buckner thing.... fans who know little grasping on to the wrong thing and fueled by a press who knew better.
    J) Bartman was wronged in every way.... Cubs should have made it up to him. Still should.
    Mike
    Bosox1976
  • Bigjohn69Bigjohn69 Posts: 737
    image
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  • jeffcbayjeffcbay Posts: 8,950 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>J) Bartman was wronged in every way.... Cubs should have made it up to him. Still should. >>



    Maybe the media made it up to him by making that documentary. I think it helped turn Bartman into a bit of a victim in all of this. Made a lot of people feel bad for him.
  • eagles33eagles33 Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭
    He should have taken the role of the heal ike a wwf character. Move to st louis and make public appearances bashing the cubs. That would have been a hilarious publicity stunt imo. I thought tiger woods should have done the same when he was going through his divorce. Get hooter girls as his caddy ect. That would have been way more amusing than the bs apology he gave.
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  • Cokin75Cokin75 Posts: 243 ✭✭
    I know that many are trying to turn this into an anti-bullying parable, but I'm not sure Bartman was 'wronged in every way'. Bottom line he should have known better. I wasn't there, but the ball looked catchable to me. Based on the reaction of Alou and the surrounding fans, I think that's a fair assumption. As a Brewers fan, I remember in the '82 ALCS when a 'Brewer fan' in the LF bleachers pulled a Bob Boone flyball from Ben Oglivie's glove turning a likely out into a home run. At the time, I wanted to kill the guy, probably still would if the Brewers hadn't won that series.
  • bishopbishop Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭
    At the National in Chicago a few years back they had an open brief case full of cash on a table surrounded by guards and with a sign that said it was all his if he showed up to claim it. He did not.

    As a Cardinals fan that guy is ok with me image
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  • IronmanfanIronmanfan Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>All I've got to say is JEFFREY FREAKING MAIER!! That effing catch turned that brat kid into a hero, and he did NOTHING different than what Bartman did. If Bartman interfered with a ball hit by the Cubs and it messed up the Marlins outfielder, then he would have ALSO had dugout seats, been on David Letterman, and given a key to the city! Am I still bitter? What do you think? >>



    I know, I'm sick....I actually have a Jeffrey Maier signed 3x5 !

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  • VegasBabyVegasBaby Posts: 82


    << <i>Great documentary.

    Personally, I kinda root AGAINST the Cubs as a result of that incident. The way the fans treated him, they don't deserve to celebrate a championship. They pin so much blame on Bartman when the blame really lies elsewhere. Especially since Moises Alou himself SAID HE COULDN"T HAVE CAUGHT THE BALL.

    Tabe >>



    I couldn't agree more, Cub fans deserve another 100 years without a championship for their treatment of Bartman.
  • leathtechleathtech Posts: 3,191 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Great documentary.

    Personally, I kinda root AGAINST the Cubs as a result of that incident. The way the fans treated him, they don't deserve to celebrate a championship. They pin so much blame on Bartman when the blame really lies elsewhere. Especially since Moises Alou himself SAID HE COULDN"T HAVE CAUGHT THE BALL.

    Tabe >>



    I couldn't agree more, Cub fans deserve another 100 years without a championship for their treatment of Bartman. >>



    I love how everyone is quick to jump on Cubs fans for going after bartman - I can only imagine if this happened in Philly or LA... Philly would probably have killed him spot on and Dodger fans well you've proven this past year just how classy your fan base can be.

    Not knocking anyone other team but if you watched the documentary the message it was trying to prove was how a mob mentality can make people act in all the wrong ways.
    image
  • TabeTabe Posts: 6,213 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>They pin so much blame on Bartman when the blame really lies elsewhere. Especially since Moises Alou himself SAID HE COULDN"T HAVE CAUGHT THE BALL.
    >>



    Alou says he doesn't recall saying that, or said it as a joke.

    Wikipedia says:
    In April 2008, Moisés Alou was quoted by the Associated Press as saying, "You know what the funny thing is? I wouldn't have caught it, anyway."[20] However, Alou later disputed that story. "I don't remember that", he said to a writer from the Palm Beach Post. "If I said that, I was probably joking to make [Bartman] feel better. But I don't remember saying that.'"[21] Alou added, "It's time to forgive the guy and move on."[21] >>


    Does that even sound remotely plausible? It sure doesn't to me. More like Alou let slip a moment of true honesty and then later realized it made him look like an idiot for claiming differently all these years.



    << <i>I love how everyone is quick to jump on Cubs fans for going after bartman - I can only imagine if this happened in Philly or LA... Philly would probably have killed him spot on and Dodger fans well you've proven this past year just how classy your fan base can be.

    Not knocking anyone other team but if you watched the documentary the message it was trying to prove was how a mob mentality can make people act in all the wrong ways. >>


    Yeah, except that's not what happened or where it took place, is it? It DID happen in Chicago and that IS how the Chicago fans treated him. We can talk hypotheticals all day but, in this case, let's just stick to what actually happened.

    Tabe
  • leathtechleathtech Posts: 3,191 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>They pin so much blame on Bartman when the blame really lies elsewhere. Especially since Moises Alou himself SAID HE COULDN"T HAVE CAUGHT THE BALL.
    >>



    Alou says he doesn't recall saying that, or said it as a joke.

    Wikipedia says:
    In April 2008, Moisés Alou was quoted by the Associated Press as saying, "You know what the funny thing is? I wouldn't have caught it, anyway."[20] However, Alou later disputed that story. "I don't remember that", he said to a writer from the Palm Beach Post. "If I said that, I was probably joking to make [Bartman] feel better. But I don't remember saying that.'"[21] Alou added, "It's time to forgive the guy and move on."[21] >>


    Does that even sound remotely plausible? It sure doesn't to me. More like Alou let slip a moment of true honesty and then later realized it made him look like an idiot for claiming differently all these years.



    << <i>I love how everyone is quick to jump on Cubs fans for going after bartman - I can only imagine if this happened in Philly or LA... Philly would probably have killed him spot on and Dodger fans well you've proven this past year just how classy your fan base can be.

    Not knocking anyone other team but if you watched the documentary the message it was trying to prove was how a mob mentality can make people act in all the wrong ways. >>


    Yeah, except that's not what happened or where it took place, is it? It DID happen in Chicago and that IS how the Chicago fans treated him. We can talk hypotheticals all day but, in this case, let's just stick to what actually happened.

    Tabe >>



    You missed the whole point... It's a document social phenomenon known as "mob mentality" the same thing would have happened anywhere you are kidding yourself if you think your home team's fan base would act any different!
    image
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