CoinWeek: "Goldline International Placed Under Injunction, Ordered To Change Sales Practices&qu
Goldbully
Posts: 17,295 ✭✭✭✭✭
I only ask, why just Goldline???? Sounds like a hit job to me!!
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Goldline International Placed Under Injunction, Ordered To Change Sales Practices
By CoinWeek on February 22, 2012 5:12 PM
National Coin Dealer Must Also Refund Up To $4.5 Million To Customers, Set Up Fund For Additional Claims
The Santa Monica City Attorney’s Office has obtained a judgment and injunction against Goldline International, Inc., one of the nation’s largest gold coin dealers. The injunction, believed to be the strongest ever levied against a precious metals dealer, requires Goldline to change its unfair sales practices and provide accurate price information to consumers. It also requires Goldline to refund up to $4.5 million to former customers and to pay $800,000.00 into a fund for future claims. The court has appointed a Monitor to ensure Goldline’s compliance.
The judgment was signed today by Judge Lisa Hart Cole of the Los Angeles County Superior Court. The injunction is part of an agreement between prosecutors and the gold dealer in a consumer protection lawsuit filed by the City Attorney’s Consumer Protection Unit. The City Attorney’s Office had previously filed criminal charges against Goldline which have now been dismissed.
Goldline has been under investigation by local authorities in California since 2010. In particular:
*Consumers from around the nation said they wanted to buy gold bullion as a safe haven for their savings or retirement accounts. But Goldline’s salespeople scared them into buying the overpriced coins instead, saying the coins were a safer and better investment than bullion. Only later did the customers discover that the opposite was true: they instantly lost a large portion of their savings due to the high markup on the coins.
*Consumers were falsely told that the government could confiscate and seize gold bullion, but that this could not happen to the overpriced coins.
*Consumers typically paid more than 55% over the actual value of the overpriced coins, but Goldline’s salespeople concealed this markup even when consumers asked about it.
*Former employees came forward and said the company trained them how to switch consumers from bullion to the overpriced coins through misleading fear tactics.
*Most consumers found Goldline through its TV ads. They trusted the company based on its well-known celebrity endorsers. Only later did they discover they had been misled into paying far over market value for coins that were worth little more than gold bullion to begin with.
The injunction requires Goldline to:
1. Disclose its actual price markups, in recorded calls before each transaction.
2. Not tell consumers that the government can confiscate gold bullion.
3. Follow a strict, factual script when discussing topics that were used in the past to mislead consumers.
4. Not attempt to sell customers higher-priced coins once they have already paid for bullion.
5. Give customers prompt refunds without hassle.
6. Set up a new phone line, manned by non-commissioned employees, for refunds, liquidations, and other customer service.
The injunction will last for five years. It can be terminated after three years if Goldline maintains a clean record for the last six months.
“This injunction requires Goldline to overhaul its business model,” said Deputy City Attorney Adam Radinsky who heads Santa Monica’s Consumer Protection Unit. “Consumers will now know the company’s true price markups, and they won’t be scared or tricked into buying something they don’t want. False and misleading fear-mongering, bait and switch tactics, and vast hidden markups cannot be tolerated. All consumers deserve to be treated fairly.”
The judgment also requires Goldline to offer refunds to customers who complained to authorities, in the total amount of up to $4.5 million. Customers getting refunds will return the coins they had bought.
Goldline must pay an additional $800,000.00 into a fund for future restitution claims. Consumers who purchased coins after November 1, 2008 and were defrauded in similar ways are eligible to receive restitution. Any funds remaining after restitution has been paid will go to the statewide Consumer Protection Prosecution Trust Fund.
Former customers who believe they were defrauded by Goldline must file a claim at this website by May 22, 2012: gold.smconsumer.org
The court order appoints Anthony Pacheco of the law firm Proskauer Rose in Los Angeles, as Monitor of the injunction. Pacheco will have full access to all company records. He will attend staff meetings, perform undercover test buys, and review actual sales calls, to assure that the company adheres to the court order.
Pacheco, a former federal prosecutor, also served as President of the Los Angeles Board of Police Commissioners, overseeing the federal consent decree of the L.A. Police Department for two years.
Goldline will pay the cost of the Monitor.
“This is a new day. Consumers in California and elsewhere, many of whom invested thousands of dollars and their life savings in the belief that the gold they were buying was a valuable and safe investment, will now get substantial relief. No one should have to suffer from predatory and deceitful sales practices,” said Radinsky. “Whether they are buying gold or anything else, consumers expect a fair deal. We insisted that Goldline give them just that.”
“We hope this case is a wake-up call to other large coin dealers and to other businesses,” said Radinsky. “They need to know that it’s against the law to mislead consumers with false fears and misinformation. And consumers need to be especially careful when investing in this uniquely unregulated industry.”
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Goldline International Placed Under Injunction, Ordered To Change Sales Practices
By CoinWeek on February 22, 2012 5:12 PM
National Coin Dealer Must Also Refund Up To $4.5 Million To Customers, Set Up Fund For Additional Claims
The Santa Monica City Attorney’s Office has obtained a judgment and injunction against Goldline International, Inc., one of the nation’s largest gold coin dealers. The injunction, believed to be the strongest ever levied against a precious metals dealer, requires Goldline to change its unfair sales practices and provide accurate price information to consumers. It also requires Goldline to refund up to $4.5 million to former customers and to pay $800,000.00 into a fund for future claims. The court has appointed a Monitor to ensure Goldline’s compliance.
The judgment was signed today by Judge Lisa Hart Cole of the Los Angeles County Superior Court. The injunction is part of an agreement between prosecutors and the gold dealer in a consumer protection lawsuit filed by the City Attorney’s Consumer Protection Unit. The City Attorney’s Office had previously filed criminal charges against Goldline which have now been dismissed.
Goldline has been under investigation by local authorities in California since 2010. In particular:
*Consumers from around the nation said they wanted to buy gold bullion as a safe haven for their savings or retirement accounts. But Goldline’s salespeople scared them into buying the overpriced coins instead, saying the coins were a safer and better investment than bullion. Only later did the customers discover that the opposite was true: they instantly lost a large portion of their savings due to the high markup on the coins.
*Consumers were falsely told that the government could confiscate and seize gold bullion, but that this could not happen to the overpriced coins.
*Consumers typically paid more than 55% over the actual value of the overpriced coins, but Goldline’s salespeople concealed this markup even when consumers asked about it.
*Former employees came forward and said the company trained them how to switch consumers from bullion to the overpriced coins through misleading fear tactics.
*Most consumers found Goldline through its TV ads. They trusted the company based on its well-known celebrity endorsers. Only later did they discover they had been misled into paying far over market value for coins that were worth little more than gold bullion to begin with.
The injunction requires Goldline to:
1. Disclose its actual price markups, in recorded calls before each transaction.
2. Not tell consumers that the government can confiscate gold bullion.
3. Follow a strict, factual script when discussing topics that were used in the past to mislead consumers.
4. Not attempt to sell customers higher-priced coins once they have already paid for bullion.
5. Give customers prompt refunds without hassle.
6. Set up a new phone line, manned by non-commissioned employees, for refunds, liquidations, and other customer service.
The injunction will last for five years. It can be terminated after three years if Goldline maintains a clean record for the last six months.
“This injunction requires Goldline to overhaul its business model,” said Deputy City Attorney Adam Radinsky who heads Santa Monica’s Consumer Protection Unit. “Consumers will now know the company’s true price markups, and they won’t be scared or tricked into buying something they don’t want. False and misleading fear-mongering, bait and switch tactics, and vast hidden markups cannot be tolerated. All consumers deserve to be treated fairly.”
The judgment also requires Goldline to offer refunds to customers who complained to authorities, in the total amount of up to $4.5 million. Customers getting refunds will return the coins they had bought.
Goldline must pay an additional $800,000.00 into a fund for future restitution claims. Consumers who purchased coins after November 1, 2008 and were defrauded in similar ways are eligible to receive restitution. Any funds remaining after restitution has been paid will go to the statewide Consumer Protection Prosecution Trust Fund.
Former customers who believe they were defrauded by Goldline must file a claim at this website by May 22, 2012: gold.smconsumer.org
The court order appoints Anthony Pacheco of the law firm Proskauer Rose in Los Angeles, as Monitor of the injunction. Pacheco will have full access to all company records. He will attend staff meetings, perform undercover test buys, and review actual sales calls, to assure that the company adheres to the court order.
Pacheco, a former federal prosecutor, also served as President of the Los Angeles Board of Police Commissioners, overseeing the federal consent decree of the L.A. Police Department for two years.
Goldline will pay the cost of the Monitor.
“This is a new day. Consumers in California and elsewhere, many of whom invested thousands of dollars and their life savings in the belief that the gold they were buying was a valuable and safe investment, will now get substantial relief. No one should have to suffer from predatory and deceitful sales practices,” said Radinsky. “Whether they are buying gold or anything else, consumers expect a fair deal. We insisted that Goldline give them just that.”
“We hope this case is a wake-up call to other large coin dealers and to other businesses,” said Radinsky. “They need to know that it’s against the law to mislead consumers with false fears and misinformation. And consumers need to be especially careful when investing in this uniquely unregulated industry.”
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Comments
Oh and when I stop at my local coin store on the way home and start to buy that nice Pcgs Colonial I've been wanting to add to my
collection, upon request the good coin dealer will tell me his markup on the coin?
This don't sound any thing like Freedom, this sounds like tyrany of the State.
If you don't like the prices maybe shop around a little bit first. Who twisted whose arm.
Leftist attacks as usual, especially before a Presidential Election (see through the smoke) . You got it another Judge bought and paid for. Did the Same in Arizona on another unrelated issue.
Its Sad
It is unfortunate, but telemarketers are part of the dark underbelly of the coin industry. The tactics described in the op are widespread. Use loss leader ads to hook the fish, then once they are on the phone use high pressure sales techniques, along with scare tactics, to sell marginally numismatic coins at huge markups, resulting in big profits for the company and the reps, and a trip to the cleaners for many of the customers. Local dealers often have to give the bad news when these customers walk in with their coins, that they were taken, often taken badly.
What's next? Will California investigate outrageously optimistic "Buy It Now" prices on ebay?
All told this looks like a political hit job.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
The faces of many dealers come to mind........for the time being, it's comforting to know there's a place in hell waiting for them.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Yes it is a matter of semantics but as far as regulation it is very important. What happens when slick hucksters get free reign in an unregulated market? Oh wait thats what happened to our entire economy under Dubya.
<< <i>If you all would stop whining about your dissatisfaction with the government you would see that this addressed a REAL problem. Redtiger hit the nail on the head. It is not about bailing people out for their mistakes. Yes people are inherently stupid, we know this. What Goldline is being punished for is selling "investments" and bait and switch. Unlike the coin industry, the investment industry on the other hand is regulated significantly. It is a fine line that we have to walk but I make it very clear I am NOT selling an investment. According to this, they used mistruths to switch consumers into collectibles that they did not want.
Yes it is a matter of semantics but as far as regulation it is very important. What happens when slick hucksters get free reign in an unregulated market? Oh wait thats what happened to our entire economy under Dubya. >>
Dubya?
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
<< <i>If you all would stop whining about your dissatisfaction with the government you would see that this addressed a REAL problem. Redtiger hit the nail on the head. It is not about bailing people out for their mistakes. Yes people are inherently stupid, we know this. What Goldline is being punished for is selling "investments" and bait and switch. Unlike the coin industry, the investment industry on the other hand is regulated significantly. It is a fine line that we have to walk but I make it very clear I am NOT selling an investment. According to this, they used mistruths to switch consumers into collectibles that they did not want.
Yes it is a matter of semantics but as far as regulation it is very important. What happens when slick hucksters get free reign in an unregulated market? Oh wait thats what happened to our entire economy under Dubya. >>
It sounds like you have some left over bile for the Bush Administation. Can you point to some specific regulatory action or inaction under the Bush Administration that allowed "hucksters" to fleece the public?
The current Administration has been in charge of the SEC since 2009 and during most of the PM bull run. Does SEC inaction mean the current Administration is giving hucksters free rein as well?
Even if Goldline used "bait and switch" I don't believe it was invented post 2001.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
"Does the same standard apply to Jim Cramer, he wondered..."
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>It is unfortunate, but telemarketers are part of the dark underbelly of the coin industry. >>
I agree 100%. For those that say well who twisted their arm to buy from them, or they should have gone elsewhere to buy you are basicly saying two wrongs make a right.
There is a learning curve when dealing with PMs and a very long learning curve for numismatic coins. The first time I bought 10 or more oz of gold was in 1990, then in the late 90s bought another 60 oz of bullion gold coins, all Philharmonics. At some time in the 1990s I picked up a monster box of ASEs. All I wanted was bullion and that's what I got, so at the time I'm happy. Just because I bought gold and silver a couple times did not mean I knew much, I'm sure now that I could have got better prices but today I don't really care if I paid an extra $25-$35 an oz since it's gone up so much from then.
Everything was fine until 2001 when a telemarketer convinced me to purchase numismatic gold instead of bullion. I was naive enough to believe his story of how one of his customers made 90% in two years. I was not born with numismatic knowledge so this is where I started to learn some of it along with the 5 years I held that crap. When I decided to sell it and convert to bullion I took a 25% loss; had that been in bullion I would have about doubled my money.
For the next 3-4 years I kept getting calls from telemarketers which I began to view as amusing. Different companys but they all had the same basic storys on how they came accross this fantastic deal, and yes they all mentioned gov confiscation. I rarely get a call from any of them anymore, they now know I've learned a bit. One hung up the phone on me after I asked a few questions. The last call I got was last summer and the part that got me was when he said he just sold a bunch of his coins to a guy that's 90 sum years old. They are targeting people that have not yet learned and sounds like the elderly are included.
I'm glad I found these forums, it's a great place to learn about PMs, coins, and currency.
<< <i>
<< <i>If you all would stop whining about your dissatisfaction with the government you would see that this addressed a REAL problem. Redtiger hit the nail on the head. It is not about bailing people out for their mistakes. Yes people are inherently stupid, we know this. What Goldline is being punished for is selling "investments" and bait and switch. Unlike the coin industry, the investment industry on the other hand is regulated significantly. It is a fine line that we have to walk but I make it very clear I am NOT selling an investment. According to this, they used mistruths to switch consumers into collectibles that they did not want.
Yes it is a matter of semantics but as far as regulation it is very important. What happens when slick hucksters get free reign in an unregulated market? Oh wait thats what happened to our entire economy under Dubya. >>
Dubya? >>
The Beef I have and it should be for EVERY ONE is the demand that they divulge their markup. If that isn't absolute Governmental Tyrany then we are totaly cooked.
I sincerely hope that this judges (aka administration lap dog) decision is challenged with the utmost vehemence! If you think that this is not just another dart through the heart of Freedom, then everyone needs to start taking a harder look at the attacks on anyone in the media whom stands for conservative values are soon silenced or shoved to the side so the leftist socialiast and binging on facism agenda can go on unimpeded.
Yeah, the repeal of Glass-Stegal had nothing to do with it. We wouldn't want to point any fingers at Summers, Rubin, Greenspan or Clinton - would we?
Yes people are inherently stupid, we know this.
Hmmmmmmm. Ya think?
Unlike the coin industry, the investment industry on the other hand is regulated significantly. It is a fine line that we have to walk but I make it very clear I am NOT selling an investment. According to this, they used mistruths to switch consumers into collectibles that they did not want.
Yes it is a matter of semantics but as far as regulation it is very important. What happens when slick hucksters get free reign in an unregulated market? Oh wait thats what happened to our entire economy under Dubya.
Pick any day of the week when the stock market is open. Watch CNBC for more than 20 minutes straight, any time of day. Then, with a straight face tell me that you aren't looking at a continuous promotional advertisement presented as "investments". Slick hucksters weren't invented by Bush.
Lastly, you can choose to continue blaming Bush for anything you want, and he does deserve a heap of blame for various mistakes and oversights. However, please be advised that this will necessarily prevent you from seeing clearly anything that happened after Jan. 20, 2009. And that's only going to be a problem when you are evaluating what to do with your own stuff.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Aren't stock brokers required to disclose fees? Those are the markups when you buy stocks. If you want to play the investment game you have to follow the investment rules. If you want to sell these products as investments which is what they are being accused of doing, then these sanctions do not go far enough. They should have to pass regulatory exams. If you don't talk about the product as an investment no problem you don't have to disclose anything. And truth be told, what is so wrong with disclosing costs. I do it all the time when selling bullion and generic gold. If you don't like what I am making, buy it elsewhere. >>
Well it used to be an individual right to disclose or not disclose. If you enjoy disclosing thats your right (for now). Now this judge is demanding they disclose. So if I follow your thought any time you mention the word investment your on the hook to disclose. Lets see; Collectable Cars, Planes, Trains, Coins Stamps, Sports Cards, Houses, Beanie Babies, books, manuscripts ad nauseum. You have got to be kidding. Governmental control of individual rights is not a path we want to go down. I hope people start pulling their heads out of the sand. The rapidity of decay of our indidual Freedoms in our Country is extremely alarming.
Freedom from Tyrany!
<< <i>If the reps used the word investment, they crossed a line, and are subject to much stricter regulations than coin dealers.
"Does the same standard apply to Jim Cramer, he wondered..." >>
Cramer and other TV talking heads on financial channels operate under a ton of rules and regulations, so the answer is no. Cramer walks a much higher road than the typical coin telemarketer. If there is a dispute, TV channels do have the advantage that everything is recorded. TV shows also have people that do compliance work and write the standard disclaimers, and then check and double check what goes on air. Sounds like Goldline is going to need to revamp that part of their business, even if it will hurt their sales and profits. It is when telemarketer reps mention the investment angle that they run into trouble. If they are hawking numismatic hobby coins, they can do whatever they want, charge whatever they want.
BTW, I am not a Cramer fan, my opinion is that most viewers would do well to think of doing the opposite of what he recommends. That said, Cramer is a very smart man, probably top 0.5% in terms of metrics such as IQ, SAT scores, and other measures of intellectual horsepower. If he were active on this forum, Cramer would likely be one of the five smartest people here, even if folks might not agree with his opinions. He has made a small fortune by being entertaining and getting people to watch what can be a very dry and boring subject.
<< <i>
<< <i>If the reps used the word investment, they crossed a line, and are subject to much stricter regulations than coin dealers.
"Does the same standard apply to Jim Cramer, he wondered..." >>
Cramer and other TV talking heads on financial channels operate under a ton of rules and regulations, so the answer is no. Cramer walks a much higher road than the typical coin telemarketer. If there is a dispute, TV channels do have the advantage that everything is recorded. TV shows also have people that do compliance work and write the standard disclaimers, and then check and double check what goes on air. Sounds like Goldline is going to need to revamp that part of their business, even if it will hurt their sales and profits. It is when telemarketer reps mention the investment angle that they run into trouble. If they are hawking numismatic hobby coins, they can do whatever they want, charge whatever they want.
BTW, I am not a Cramer fan, my opinion is that most viewers would do well to think of doing the opposite of what he recommends. That said, Cramer is a very smart man, probably top 0.5% in terms of metrics such as IQ, SAT scores, and other measures of intellectual horsepower. If he were active on this forum, Cramer would likely be one of the five smartest people here, even if folks might not agree with his opinions. He has made a small fortune by being entertaining and getting people to watch what can be a very dry and boring subject. >>
So if I mention Hobby somewhere in the mix along with the investment pitch they are good to go?
RedTiger, please explain to this neophyte when it comes to most business law, where exactly is that line drawn, and from what/where are you deriving that information from?
BTW, I am not a Cramer fan, my opinion is that most viewers would do well to think of doing the opposite of what he recommends. That said, Cramer is a very smart man, probably top 0.5% in terms of metrics such as IQ, SAT scores, and other measures of intellectual horsepower. If he were active on this forum, Cramer would likely be one of the five smartest people here, even if folks might not agree with his opinions. He has made a small fortune by being entertaining and getting people to watch what can be a very dry and boring subject.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that Goldline doesn't need to clean up it's act. I've seen what they are doing, and they aren't doing a very good job of educating their customers. But, to require them to state what their profit margins are is over-the-top and draconian. I'd like to offer my opinion on that judge's salary and his own investments, to be fair - so to speak. I'd like to see his timeclock records, just for verification - you know?
I used to like Cramer alot, for entertainment purposes. And he is a very bright fellow. But, when you consider the predominance of Goldman Sachs alumni everywhere, and their seemingly pervasive influence on our finances - it becomes something else. Robert Rubin and Larry Summers - who destroyed Glass Stegal for their old firm's benefit, it seems. Timmy Geithner's close ties to GS as NY Fed Chairman whilst managing the US Treasury Auction sales at the time. Hank Paulson's frontrunning of the Lehman bankrupcy and US Treasury's intentions to bail out the other banks, in private meetings of GS personnel and hedge fund managers.
Realizing that Cramer is the leading cheerleader for a stock market that is being supported by OE1, QE2, Twist, and now the Stealth QE3 - gives one a different perspective on what should be allowed in the endorsement and regulation of "TV stock market commentators", doesn't it? Cramer takes pains to clarify his holdings and his recommendations in order to comply with the regs, but he is *always* pumping stocks in some way, i.e., "there is always a bull market, somewhere". What he promotes is constant churning in a constant chase for maximum return. Sure, he's a bright guy, but I have to believe that he works for CNBC, which is owned by GE, which is certainly connected to people that have interests contrary to my own.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
>>
So if I mention Hobby somewhere in the mix along with the investment pitch they are good to go?
>>
RedTiger, please explain to this neophyte when it comes to most business law, where exactly is that line drawn, and from what/where are you deriving that information from? >>
No. Nyet. In the op, part of the injunction is a requirement for a recorded disclaimer before the live salesperson starts talking.
I doubt you are a neophyte, and I am not qualified to educate a neophyte. I am writing from the top of my head, as to what I believe is common knowledge for anyone that has been around the investment industry for any length of time. Virtually every financial TV show has a disclaimer, as does every live presentation that I have attended, as does every webinar that I listen to. It is part of the culture. Anyone that has set up a brokerage account or bought a mutual fund knows what kind of paperwork and what kind of disclaimers typically go with those products. Brokerage clients are asked about suitability, whether they are aggressive investors, average or conservative.
Compare that to what telemarketer coin investors typically get, loss leader bullion sold near cost to get them in the net, followed by a high pressure sales pitch over the phone laced with lies, likely with zero paperwork. The coin telemarketer culture is more that of the vulture or hyena. It is sorry to see people on this forum defend what are reprehensible sales practices. Many of the reps are sharks that spend all day trolling the phone lines looking for fish to eat. Mostly elderly fish, many retired fish, that can't afford to lose the money. The many reps that use scare tactics, and high pressure sales techniques, to earn their commissions, I see as among the worst of the worst, and there are a lot of them.
I'm beginning to believe that crooks like Madoff and Goldline only get taken down when the rip off the wrong customer.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
What I see here is the main reason Saints are trading at bullion prices below MS-63. There is no retail push right now. No Goldline alternative to move these common coins off the market.
I would say, if you have a desire to own classic US coins over gold Eagles or Maple Leafs, now is the time to buy them.
APMEX, Provident, Gainsville ... ALL post Spot pricing, Sell price and Buy price.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
<< <i>Not to defend Goldline, but why can't the regulators go after the big fish such as MF Global and the TBTF banks?
I'm beginning to believe that crooks like Madoff and Goldline only get taken down when the rip off the wrong customer. >>
Or when they (current Administration) is trying their best to twist the tongue out of any one whom opposses their agenda by going after their advertisers.
Make no mistake Goldline is/was a very sizable trophy to take down and discredit. The wake created by it is very determined. This is what the face of Facism looks like.
We have moved into a new dimension of politics, it is just about all out warfare. Wake up America!
Last year , they convinced him to buy high grade gold coins and exuberant pricing, now he needs to sell and has lost 10 of thousands of $ the past month.
example:
They sold him NGC 63 $2 1/2 Indians at 2k each, current value around 750-800
He paid over 10 k each for MS-65 $10 Indian common dates.
They also charged him $3000 each for Ms-62 saints / libs.
I saw the receipts, so its fact!
<< <i>This is exactly what is going on, I have a customer who has been dealt a similar blow, not from them, but another large firm in Texas.
Last year , they convinced him to buy high grade gold coins and exuberant pricing, now he needs to sell and has lost 10 of thousands of $ the past month.
example:
They sold him NGC 63 $2 1/2 Indians at 2k each, current value around 750-800
He paid over 10 k each for MS-65 $10 Indian common dates.
They also charged him $3000 each for Ms-62 saints / libs.
I saw the receipts, so its fact! >>
Have these consumers done their DD(Due Diligence)? I don't think so.
Who would buy a gold coin with mininal numismatic value without checking several expert sources...namely professional coin dealers!
Buyer beware I say!
<< <i>
<< <i>This is exactly what is going on, I have a customer who has been dealt a similar blow, not from them, but another large firm in Texas.
Last year , they convinced him to buy high grade gold coins and exuberant pricing, now he needs to sell and has lost 10 of thousands of $ the past month.
example:
They sold him NGC 63 $2 1/2 Indians at 2k each, current value around 750-800
He paid over 10 k each for MS-65 $10 Indian common dates.
They also charged him $3000 each for Ms-62 saints / libs.
I saw the receipts, so its fact! >>
Have these consumers done their DD(Due Diligence)? I don't think so.
Who would buy a gold coin with mininal numismatic value without checking several expert sources...namely professional coin dealers!
Buyer beware I say! >>
That's the difference in today's political climate. You have the liberals on one side trying to protect people from their own greed/stupidity. On the other side you have conservatives saying lets make money at any cost. If you are not wealthy or making money it is your fault and should be taken advantage of. Our industry is falling down the slippery slope of regulation due to situations like this one. Had certain parties not become too greedy, this would not have been an issue. I dread the day our industry gets regulated because politicians on both sides of the aisle have no idea how our industry works. Whereas for many investment industries it is easy and they know. For coins not so much.
Secondly, I agree with derryb, i.e. "why can't the regulators go after the big fish such as MF Global and the TBTF banks?"
Thirdly, it's political and everyone knows it. Goldline's advertisers are the targets, not necessarily Goldline. If preventing consumer ripoffs in the coin retail market were the real objective, wouldn't they want to start with the TV ads that promise genuine Gold Eagle 24 Karat gold "clad" or .999 pure silver "clad" keepsakes?
There's plenty of greed to spread around. I would make the observation that it's every bit as greedy to buy something in a rush because you heard someone on TV promise massive profits when you don't know jack about it, as it is for the guy selling something in a rush because he knows that his prey doesn't know jack about what he is buying.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Firstly, anyone who has ever bought bullion has had to undergo a learning curve. Unfortunately, this doesn't usually manifest itself until they decide to sell. It doesn't excuse marketers who don't properly disclose the costs or the risks, but it is generally true.
Secondly, I agree with derryb, i.e. "why can't the regulators go after the big fish such as MF Global and the TBTF banks?"
Thirdly, it's political and everyone knows it. Goldline's advertisers are the targets, not necessarily Goldline. If preventing consumer ripoffs in the coin retail market were the real objective, wouldn't they want to start with the TV ads that promise genuine Gold Eagle 24 Karat gold "clad" or .999 pure silver "clad" keepsakes?
There's plenty of greed to spread around. I would make the observation that it's every bit as greedy to buy something in a rush because you heard someone on TV promise massive profits when you don't know jack about it, as it is for the guy selling something in a rush because he knows that his prey doesn't know jack about what he is buying. >>
To your third point; If you watch the commercials for the gold "clad" pieces, they are highly regulated and they word their pitch is perfected by lawyers. You can go through what they say with a fine tooth comb and they make no claims that are not "technically" true. Is it right? No. Is it illegal... well no. On the other hand, the rules about bait and switch and giving investment advice when you are not a certified adviser are more problematic.
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<< <i>This is exactly what is going on, I have a customer who has been dealt a similar blow, not from them, but another large firm in Texas.
Last year , they convinced him to buy high grade gold coins and exuberant pricing, now he needs to sell and has lost 10 of thousands of $ the past month.
example:
They sold him NGC 63 $2 1/2 Indians at 2k each, current value around 750-800
He paid over 10 k each for MS-65 $10 Indian common dates.
They also charged him $3000 each for Ms-62 saints / libs.
I saw the receipts, so its fact! >>
Have these consumers done their DD(Due Diligence)? I don't think so.
Who would buy a gold coin with mininal numismatic value without checking several expert sources...namely professional coin dealers!
Buyer beware I say! >>
That's the difference in today's political climate. You have the liberals on one side trying to protect people from their own greed/stupidity. On the other side you have conservatives saying lets make money at any cost. If you are not wealthy or making money it is your fault and should be taken advantage of. Our industry is falling down the slippery slope of regulation due to situations like this one. Had certain parties not become too greedy, this would not have been an issue. I dread the day our industry gets regulated because politicians on both sides of the aisle have no idea how our industry works. Whereas for many investment industries it is easy and they know. For coins not so much. >>
There was an unquestionable reason for this particular company to be singled out of dozens and dozens of Gold sellers. This practice goes on everyday by thousands of companys dishing out their wares. To think that this is strictly a piece of lets help the poor people who bought the overpriced stuff is like walking around with rose colored glasses on. Again, we need to realize what is happening to our Personal Freedoms as well as our business Freedoms. This was a very politcal hit job meant to help stop any and all conservative Free Speech by attacking their advertisers. This Country is now in the hands of rising Facism which is being forced fed extensively by the current administration.
Give us a break. This is not a political forum, or some "say anything you like" blog. If you want to spew garbage, you will eventually have to eat it.
<< <i>Again, we need to realize what is happening to our Personal Freedoms as well as our business Freedoms. This was a very politcal hit job meant to help stop any and all conservative Free Speech by attacking their advertisers. This Country is now in the hands of rising Facism which is being forced fed extensively by the current administration.
Give us a break. This is not a political forum, or some "say anything you like" blog. If you want to spew garbage, you will eventually have to eat it. >>
Please explain to me where the garbage is?
Then, saying the current administration is fascist, or the country is, really puts your ideology out there in La-La land. That kind of talk is great for closed blogs where they don't allow any dissent or bloggers self-congratulate one another on how nasty they can be, but on an open forum, it is over the line.
<< <i>We live in a land of laws. If Goldline broke laws, their should be repercussions. If they did not, they will prevail in court. Making it an attack on personal freedoms and business freedoms is pretty wacky. If it were a political hit job, then they can use the law to win their case. Regardless of the motivation of bringing the case on Goldline, you seem to be defending them because they sell gold.
Then, saying the current administration is fascist, or the country is, really puts your ideology out there in La-La land. That kind of talk is great for closed blogs where they don't allow any dissent or bloggers self-congratulate one another on how nasty they can be, but on an open forum, it is over the line. >>
I spoke facts that are not hidden even to those that are in complete denial. But each is granted the right to belive what they want by their creator, but if this Fascist movement is not stopped then all will eventually be crying some serious blues, even you. Good Luck.
Fascism is where the collective is instructed to act as a single ideology. When a whole party acts as one on an issue, that is fascism. Are we projecting here?
<< <i>...isn't that a river in Egypt?
Fascism is where the collective is instructed to act as a single ideology. When a whole party acts as one on an issue, that is fascism. Are we projecting here? >>
You know very well it is a process which evolves. That evolution is gaining momentum daily, and hopefully there are enough individuals left in these United States to not only recognize it, but that will take decisive action to stop it- now.
I believe at least for my part enough has been said on this thread and I really don't want to lose my priviledges here on the PCGS Forum so I will let you have the last word and we can just agree to disagree. By the way, you carry some really nice Coins.
I found this interesting.
OK, George Orwell was too liberal, so how about this: THE 14 DEFINING CHARACTERISTICS OF FASCISM.
I mentioned "Projection" above. Let me define what I meant. If an organization has all the traits of "X", they can deflect all accusations at them of being "X" by first declaring the opposition to be "X". That way the counter-claim looks like a childish quid-pro-quo that can be easily argued away without debating its merits.