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If a Proof Coin is Touched by Human Hands, It Is No Longer a Proof

CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,644 ✭✭✭✭✭
What is the origin of this myth? Was it published in the Redbook or something, and then taken out? I remember being told this when I was a kid, but I have no idea where the information came from.

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  • WaterSportWaterSport Posts: 6,911 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, proof is a coin making process, not a untouched by humans condition.

    WS
    Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The OP's statement would be 100% accurate and correct if it wasn't so incredibly foolish and wrong.

    peacockcoins

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,760 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The OP's statement would be 100% accurate and correct if it wasn't so incredibly foolish and wrong. >>


    I don't think the OP was stating it was right. He called it the myth that it is. Just forgot to put quotation marks around it in his title.

    PS- I can remember hearing it, too. I'll try to remember to skim my 1976 Redbook. In those days I didn't have much access to the numismatic community, so I learned pretty much everything from the Redbook and Coins magazine.

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  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,893 ✭✭✭✭✭
    LOL. Coinosaurus knows what he's saying. He's just asking where such a dumb notion came from.

    I have no idea. I've heard it before, but from no one with any numismatic sense.
    Lance.
  • LanLordLanLord Posts: 11,723 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I remember as a kid, being told that exact same thing with regards to "uncirculated" coins.
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I remember as a kid, being told that exact same thing with regards to "uncirculated" coins. >>

    I've seen the same thing on this very forum, when it was claimed a coin received in change could not be considered uncirculated.
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was told the same as a kid. I do not remember anything about special polishing of the dies, mirrored planchets, special strikes--all I knew is that "they were never touched by human hands".
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i>all I knew is that "they were never touched by human hands". >>

    That's what all the trained monkeys were for, you know. image


  • << <i>I was told the same as a kid. I do not remember anything about special polishing of the dies, mirrored planchets, special strikes--all I knew is that "they were never touched by human hands". >>



    Apparently, monkey hands were ok.
  • OldEastsideOldEastside Posts: 4,602 ✭✭✭✭✭
    imageI heard this term the othe day on a coinfurmicial,
    but I do remember the phrase as a kid back in 1970
    in B&M's with bid boards and a lot of collecters, Back
    in the late 80's I put together a early Jeff proof set
    raw from dealers 2x2 stock and and I still have the
    40, 41, and 42 nickel one's that have dyke marks on
    the rim from someone that took this myth serious.

    Steve
    Promote the Hobby
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,754 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The OP's statement would be 100% accurate and correct if it wasn't so incredibly foolish and wrong. >>


    I don't think the OP was stating it was right. He called it the myth that it is. Just forgot to put quotation marks around it in his title.

    PS- I can remember hearing it, too. I'll try to remember to skim my 1976 Redbook. In those days I didn't have much access to the numismatic community, so I learned pretty much everything from the Redbook and Coins magazine. >>



    OP = "Original Post"

    (Not: "Original Poster")

    peacockcoins

  • tightbudgettightbudget Posts: 7,299 ✭✭✭
    Definitely heard that one before. Don't remember when or where, but it's not a new one to me.
  • I have heard the same myth in Italy, where I grew up. About uncirculated coins, though. MM
    The member formerly known as Ciccio / Posts: 1453 / Joined: Apr 2009
  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,432 ✭✭✭
    the only thing i recall about proofs
    they were special coins from special dies
    if they circulated they are to be called "impaired"
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • Can we take this conversation just one step further. Suppose that you are saving ATB quarters and besides the usual "P", "D", and "S" uncirculated coins you take an ATB Silver Proof set and open it up and put it in you album. Does the value of the silver "S" coins decrease once you break open the mint set up to the price of silver alone.

    What was said previously the silver mint coin is the result of a manufacturing process and as such is priced accordingly. Am I mixing the conversation from what the OP said and what other have said. It would seem to my neophyte brain that the coin is still proof but the value has to be diminished.
    Successful BST with Nolawyer, Whitetornado, Messydesk, whit, lasvegasteddy,cohodk,allcoinsrule, watersport, blackhawk, tonedase, PRoemisch
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,552 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As a kid , I heard, "Go get my belt".
    That's why kids pants hang down nowadays. We lost the belt.
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,644 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Am I mixing the conversation from what the OP said and what other have said. It would seem to my neophyte brain that the coin is still proof but the value has to be diminished. >>



    The problem is this - if you tell a five-year old anything, they will believe you. Rationally I hear what you are saying. The problem is that I have this childhood recollection that you are WRONG image
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,552 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If a mint state coin is touched by human hands , it's still mint state. It would actually have to have wear to be less than that. Right ?
  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,432 ✭✭✭
    lots of slabbed mint state coins circulate one would wonder if they're uncirculated by definition
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In early catalogs and pricelists (ca. 1880s - 1920s) it was common to mistakenly refer to coins of exceptional quality as proofs and lesser quality examples as uncirculated. Ignorant were many as to the true definition of a proof. Perhaps the myth of "never been touched by human hands" stemmed from that mislabeling. I recall that as a kid we thought proofs were "never touched by human hands" and we would joke about all the monkeys that must have been working at the US Mint.
    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I never head that one before. As we know, that's total nonsense. A proof only issue can be worn practically smooth and will still be considered as a proof as long as the coin has enough detail to be identified. From a practical viewpoint, most proofs can not be identified as proofs once they enter circulation and their mirrored surfaces are worn down.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭
    As a kid in the late 50's, I do remember "proof" being referred to as a coins "condition" much like fine, extra fine.

    In short, proof meant perfect.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,681 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I remember as a kid, being told that exact same thing with regards to "uncirculated" coins. >>



    Bingo. I think this was the very first thing I "learned" as a coin collector.

    I remember a kid telling me (and several other kids standing around) at the Junior High coin club I wandered into. I can still hear his voice in my mind. It's funny how some memories just stick with you.

    I also remember thinking much, much later: "HUMAN hands? So a monkey or a dog could touch it and it would still be uncirculated? Sounds like something some kid made up to sound like he knew what he was talking about."

  • dogwooddogwood Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭✭
    I remember hearing, and precociously repeating this phrase.
    It's obvious that the sealed mint packages, then big slabs they were packaged in, had everything to do with it.
    I know, there were UNC sets as well, but uncs were not exclusively found in cellophane or plastic.
    We're all born MS70. I'm about a Fine 15 right now.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You guys must be young - I don't remember what I was told as a kid. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,681 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You guys must be young - I don't remember what I was told as a kid. image >>



    I'm pretty sure that when you were young Lakesammman, coins were oval and made out of electrum. Nobody worried much about "uncirculated" back then.

    image

    (Actually, I think we are about the same age, but I couldn't resist!). image
  • I never heard any of this as a kid. It must have been a regional thing.

  • kiyotekiyote Posts: 5,588 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I grew up in the 80s-- I remember them being called "untouched" sets for a while for whatever reason.
    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,760 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>OP = "Original Post"

    (Not: "Original Poster") >>



    Braddick- it can stand for either.

    We're BOTH right.

    So nyah nyah. image

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  • << <i>

    << <i>I remember as a kid, being told that exact same thing with regards to "uncirculated" coins. >>

    I've seen the same thing on this very forum, when it was claimed a coin received in change could not be considered uncirculated. >>



    An argument for the ages , ive had coins in change that are nicer condition than some that came from US Mint rolls and bags.
  • coastaljerseyguycoastaljerseyguy Posts: 1,557 ✭✭✭✭✭
    >> I remember as a kid, being told that exact same thing with regards to "uncirculated" coins. >>
    >>I've seen the same thing on this very forum, when it was claimed a coin received in change could not be considered uncirculated. >>

    Good topic. Actually, how many times do you think a coin could circulate before the TPG's could definitively grade AU, assuming no thumb rubbing or hard contact sliding on a counter. I would think the large the coin, the easier to tell, and maybe 2 or 3 times.

    I received a proof dime a while back from my local 7-11 which meant it circulated at least twice, from whomever broke it out of the packet to the cashier then to me. Under a loupe, I could not see any circulation marks and don't doubt it would go Proof 66 or higher. To me, it is circulated, no matter how perfect it looks.

  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another myth about Proofs is that they are double-struck.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • If you need proof , I have a proof coin that is worn down to a grade
    of fine , and I know it's a proof because in that year and denomination
    the mint only minted proof coins .
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  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I remember as a kid, being told that exact same thing with regards to "uncirculated" coins. >>

    I've seen the same thing on this very forum, when it was claimed a coin received in change could not be considered uncirculated. >>


    In a technical sense, that is actually true, no? If it has been used in "circulation", then it can in no way be "uncirculated". Perhaps "mint state" is a better word to describe coins that grade 60+ on the Sheldon scale.
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i>In a technical sense, that is actually true, no? If it has been used in "circulation", then it can in no way be "uncirculated". >>

    If you're grading coins, all that matters is if there is wear and if so, how much. Where the coin has been is not necessarily relevant to the grade.
  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>In a technical sense, that is actually true, no? If it has been used in "circulation", then it can in no way be "uncirculated". >>

    If you're grading coins, all that matters is if there is wear and if so, how much. Where the coin has been is not necessarily relevant to the grade. >>


    Well that would bring me to the latter portion of my first post that a more proper way to describe a coin that would grade 60+ on the Sheldon scale would be "mint state" because it in no way lends to the idea that the coin has not seen circulation. Of course, it is all a matter of semantics.
  • mrpotatoheaddmrpotatoheadd Posts: 7,576 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Well that would bring me to the latter portion of my first post that a more proper way to describe a coin that would grade 60+ on the Sheldon scale would be "mint state" because it in no way lends to the idea that the coin has not seen circulation. >>

    What if you're selling raw coins on eBay? How would you describe a mint state coin there? image
  • stealerstealer Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Well that would bring me to the latter portion of my first post that a more proper way to describe a coin that would grade 60+ on the Sheldon scale would be "mint state" because it in no way lends to the idea that the coin has not seen circulation. >>

    What if you're selling raw coins on eBay? How would you describe a mint state coin there? image >>


    Well, I don't sell coins on eBay so I don't know how to answer that question...

    image
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Another myth about Proofs is that they are double-struck. >>



    They're not?

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